AAFES Telephone Purchase help

[Full time cadet]

Can someone please assist me on how to purchase things from AAFES via telephone? I called and no one seem to know what is Civil Air Patrol including the supervisor. They also told me that nothing states that we can purchase. My closest base is Fort Hamilton (Brooklyn,NY). I called the gate guards and they also said they have no idea whats Civil Air Patrol and only people from the military have access.

My CAPID is the Cadet ID with no photo (17 yrs old)

[Eclipse]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=654.0

Should there be some confusion on their side, refer them to Army Regulation 215–8 / AFI 34-211(I), page 27.  http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/539/kw/AAFES

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/534/kw/AAFES

[JC004]

The prices on this page are old, but this will give you ballpark prices and item numbers, all in one list.  Or you can browse through all their website pages.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10753.0

[Eclipse]

Nice to see you can finally browse.

[Robert Hartigan]

I just tried to order uniform items through Military Clothing Sales Store via telephone last week. Long story short we can't because AAFES will not accept credit card numbers over the phone. I emailed KC Jones at National HQ and he said he is working on some sort of compromise, but nothing has happened, yet.

[Eclipse]

I just tried to order uniform items through Military Clothing Sales Store via telephone last week. Long story short we can't because AAFES will not accept credit card numbers over the phone. I emailed KC Jones at National HQ and he said he is working on some sort of compromise, but nothing has happened, yet.

So in the space of a week we're back to the typical nonsense w/ AAFES - "don't know who CAP is", "can't place orders because of...reasons".

With that said, it's probably an indication of the low volume CAP is bringing to them.

Who manages the vendor relationships at NHQ?   They should be on a speed-dial relationship so things like this don't happen.

[Robert Hartigan]

The long story is I placed an order back in late October and everything went great. Super customer service, in stock items and really quick delivery. Then last month, I sent an email with all of the items I wanted to order with the idea of priming the pump. I figured doing so would let the CSR enter the order since it had to be handled differently then she could call me to confirm everything and take the credit card information. Easy-peasy, quick, no fuss.

No response to the email. I sent it again from another account thinking maybe it got caught in a spam filter. No response. I picked up the phone thinking maybe that person doesn't work there anymore. Spoke to the same lady from October and she acted like she had never heard of the CAP. She transferred me to her supervisor and I got voicemail. Called back for an email address and she acted like we hadn't just talked minutes ago. It was really kind of weird. Finally got a response from the manager and she told me to contact KC Jones at CAP HQ.

I emailed KC Jones. His reply was, "We are working with the Exchange to be able to call orders in to the AAFES HQ in Dallas. Due to credit card laws, Lackland MCSS can no longer take orders over the phone."

[Eclipse]

I emailed KC Jones. His reply was, "We are working with the Exchange to be able to call orders in to the AAFES HQ in Dallas. Due to credit card laws, Lackland MCSS can no longer take orders over the phone."

Rediculous.  There are no "laws" that preclude taking credit cards over the phone.  There are industry security standards which
strongly discourage the practice, but those are not legal mandates, and many businesses still use the practice every day because they
simply have no alternative.  If AAFES has decided to adopt those practices, so be it, then they need provide an alternative method, (checks anyone?) and not one that incurs additional cost or grief on CAP members.

I just looked and there are no service coats for sale at VG, which means that at some point since Oct, there became no official place for members without physical access to an MCSS to buy a new service coat, and it took a member bring denied for NHQ to notice.

Regardless of the payment method, this selective amnesia by AAFES is unacceptable.

Again, who is responsible for vendor relations at NHQ, and why is this "news".  If NHQ was aware, they then should have made
notification somehow to the membership.

If anyone wants to know why some members are frustrated with the amount of attention that distractions like CGMs and other pet projects get, this is a great example.  The definition of, and the ability to actually purchase, a uniform, is a baseline expectation of every member, especially the new ones.  A new member encountering this wall loses a lot of confidence in the organization's
ability to manage and provide for member needs.

There are two official sources for CAP uniforms - NHQ keeps cutting off other sources - and neither seems to be managed in the
way they should be.

[lordmonar]

There are two official sources for CAP USAF style uniforms - NHQ keeps cutting off other sources - and neither seems to be managed in the
way they should be.

I'm sorry what other source of USAF Style uniforms did CAP cut off?

CAP distinctive uniforms (grey and whites, the blazer combo, blue BDU, and Blue Flight suits may be purchase from any source.
The Hock Shop was (and others) were told not to produce and sell CAP distinctive insignia.....and that is all.

Get your facts straight.

On this AAFES problem.

This is a problem.

CAP NHQ is aware of it and is trying to fix it.

What more can you ask for?

[Eclipse]

CAP distinctive uniforms (grey and whites, the blazer combo, blue BDU, and Blue Flight suits may be purchase from any source.
The Hock Shop was (and others) were told not to produce and sell CAP distinctive insignia....

Negative, NHQ has C&Ds other vendors for selling things as generic as nametapes with standard english words,
not to mention vendors who were official SPONSORS of CAP.

On this AAFES problem.

This is a problem.

CAP NHQ is aware of it and is trying to fix it.

What more can you ask for?

Proactivity in the relationships.  That should not be difficult when you have only two vendors.

Yet...

[JC004]

Can they take a fax order?  I did that in the past.  You can fax from a computer easily. 

I'm not familiar with any changes that have impacted credit card use on the phone.  What's up with that? 

It's a big issue if CAP members can't purchase from AAFES.  There's many items Vanguard doesn't carry.  Those they do are significantly more expensive.  It's like 20 bucks extra for a service cap.  They don't carry the lightweight blue jacket, service coat, vest...

A new member encountering this wall loses a lot of confidence in the organization's
ability to manage and provide for member needs.
...

I've made this point on various issues.  It's a very important consideration.  They want to emphasize retention, but issues like this add up in people's minds and impact their attitude toward renewing.  It's important to break down walls and make volunteers feel that you care about their total volunteer experience with CAP.

[Robert Hartigan]

I went down the rabbit hole that is fax ordering. Made me want to pay the prices at Vanguard. Not to get off topic, but this is a huge cost savings to be able to purchase blues through MCSS. Vanguard wants $49 for the same shirt MCSS wants $14. And, when the Cadet Uniform voucher program doesn't work Vanguard's prices really hit the wallet hard!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I just tried to order uniform items through Military Clothing Sales Store via telephone last week. Long story short we can't because AAFES will not accept credit card numbers over the phone. I emailed KC Jones at National HQ and he said he is working on some sort of compromise, but nothing has happened, yet.

So in the space of a week we're back to the typical nonsense w/ AAFES - "don't know who CAP is", "can't place orders because of...reasons".

With that said, it's probably an indication of the low volume CAP is bringing to them.

Who manages the vendor relationships at NHQ?   They should be on a speed-dial relationship so things like this don't happen.

With our cadet churn, don't we buy at least 10,000 new cadet uniforms a year?

[Eclipse]

With our cadet churn, don't we buy at least 10,000 new cadet uniforms a year?

I would imagine - please someone tell me they come from AAFES.

[LSThiker]

Everyone seems to jumping to conclusions about the CAP AAFES relationship. Take a step back and realize that tbese issues are larger than CAP. AAFES as a whole is experiencing serious problems:

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/2014/11/13/army-and-air-force-exchange-service-website-problems/18976103/

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/retail/aafes.html

I called the other day because my login account disappeared. They could not find my SSN to demonstrate that I was a member of the Armed Forces. I had to fax in my military ID to get added. 

Anyway, go ahead and continue arguing about how this is CAP's fault.

[a2capt]

. Vanguard wants $49 for the same shirt MCSS wants $14.

It's not the same. Take a look at the labels. MCSS also sells that $49 variety .. for just a bit less. The commercial poly/wool variety looks a tad bit different, but made to the same specifications with regards to color, design/layout.. The Big V can't re-sell the DSCP issue items.

[JC004]

I just tried to order uniform items through Military Clothing Sales Store via telephone last week. Long story short we can't because AAFES will not accept credit card numbers over the phone. I emailed KC Jones at National HQ and he said he is working on some sort of compromise, but nothing has happened, yet.

So in the space of a week we're back to the typical nonsense w/ AAFES - "don't know who CAP is", "can't place orders because of...reasons".

With that said, it's probably an indication of the low volume CAP is bringing to them.

Who manages the vendor relationships at NHQ?   They should be on a speed-dial relationship so things like this don't happen.

With our cadet churn, don't we buy at least 10,000 new cadet uniforms a year?

It's around 12,000 cadets at the moment - the FCU program costs CAP $450,000 to $500,000 a year.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea, those the white paper numbers? Rings a bell.

[JC004]

Yes, they are in that paper on program change options.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wonder how that's going.

Either way...a half mil contract is nothing to sneeze at. No reason they would ever say "CAP whowat?".

Some of their reviews are quite hilarious. If it wasn't for a family business, maybe I'd send a resume in for their ecommerce manager role.

[PHall]

Everyone seems to jumping to conclusions about the CAP AAFES relationship. Take a step back and realize that tbese issues are larger than CAP. AAFES as a whole is experiencing serious problems:

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/2014/11/13/army-and-air-force-exchange-service-website-problems/18976103/

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/retail/aafes.html

I called the other day because my login account disappeared. They could not find my SSN to demonstrate that I was a member of the Armed Forces. I had to fax in my military ID to get added. 

Anyway, go ahead and continue arguing about how this is CAP's fault.

I would check to see if you're still enrolled in DEERS too. Supposedly the same database.

[LSThiker]

I would check to see if you're still enrolled in DEERS too. Supposedly the same database.

I think it was more user error than anything else.

[LTC Don]

Spot on about the retention issue.  To have stuff like this happen to members who are trying to do right in good faith is unacceptably demeaning and morale-killing.  Same thing when members try to go on base with good success one week, and then the next week the SPs suddenly play stupid and have never heard of CAP, making the member(s) feel like they've done something wrong and should be punished.

It's a very old and tiring story. 

[Nuke52]

I called the other day because my login account disappeared. They could not find my SSN to demonstrate that I was a member of the Armed Forces. I had to fax in my military ID to get added. 

I would check to see if you're still enrolled in DEERS too. Supposedly the same database.

I would check to see if you're still in the military.  Ya never know...   

[Nuke52]

CAP distinctive uniforms (grey and whites, the blazer combo, blue BDU, and Blue Flight suits may be purchase from any source.
The Hock Shop was (and others) were told not to produce and sell CAP distinctive insignia....

Negative, NHQ has C&Ds other vendors for selling things as generic as nametapes with standard english words,
not to mention vendors who were official SPONSORS of CAP.

On this AAFES problem.

This is a problem.

CAP NHQ is aware of it and is trying to fix it.

What more can you ask for?

Proactivity in the relationships.  That should not be difficult when you have only two vendors.

Yet...

Standard English words, yes.  But words invented by the Civil Air Patrol (TM).  I hope I don't get a C&D for writing that...  I meant one of those other Civil Air Patrols that are buying so many Cessnas from Independence, KS, USA!

Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?  Let the men drink their Kool-aid!  NHQ is aware, and everything will be fine...

[RiverAux]

Hmm, Coast Guard has a nice easy-to-use web site that everyone in the CG family can use to order uniform items.  No muss, no fuss.  You'd think that the AF would be able to figure it out. 

[lordmonar]

Hmm, Coast Guard has a nice easy-to-use web site that everyone in the CG family can use to order uniform items.  No muss, no fuss.  You'd think that the AF would be able to figure it out.

To be technical AAFES is not the Air Force.

[PHall]

Hmm, Coast Guard has a nice easy-to-use web site that everyone in the CG family can use to order uniform items.  No muss, no fuss.  You'd think that the AF would be able to figure it out.

To be technical AAFES is not the Air Force.

AAFES belongs to the Department of Defense. Just like the Defense Commissary Agency (DeCA).

[Ned]

Through our colleagues at CAP-USAF, we have periodically engaged with AAFES in an effort to provide precisely what many of you are seeking - a convenient way to purchase authorized uniform items on-line.  The major problem is that their web-based services interface with DEERS / RAPIDS to provide access, and, obviously, CAP members are not in DEERS (unless individuals also happen to be servicemembers, retirees, contracors, DoD civilians, or dependants.)

It is easy to say, "well, let's just add CAP members into the DEERS database or just open a stand-alone CAP 'uniform stuff only' page that interfaces with eServices for access. But the reality is difficult, costly, and from AAFES's perspective, simply infeasible.

CP has been particularly enthusiastic in pursuing this solution to assist us with administering the FCU program.  Imagine how easy and effective it would be for cadets (and / or parents) to log onto the uniform portion of the AAFES website and -- using a pre-supplied FCU voucher -- simply order the necessary uniforms.  Which would be delivered to their door days later.

But so far, AAFES indicates that it would cost a great deal of money to alter their secure web processes, and we have been unable to convince them otherwise.  They are good people who genuinely want to increase their level of service to CAP and our members, but they cannot see a way forward for web-based services until significant resources can be identified to create a secure interface.

Perhaps that will change someday . . .

[RiverAux]

Hmm, Coast Guard has a nice easy-to-use web site that everyone in the CG family can use to order uniform items.  No muss, no fuss.  You'd think that the AF would be able to figure it out.

To be technical AAFES is not the Air Force.

I was suggesting that the AF would figure out a way to secure relatively easy access to this for their Auxiliary not that they ran it. 

The major problem is that their web-based services interface with DEERS / RAPIDS to provide access, and, obviously, CAP members are not in DEERS (unless individuals also happen to be servicemembers, retirees, contracors, DoD civilians, or dependants.)

I'm in no way an internet security expert but having to provide this level of access to a store seems like a major vulnerability itself.  Seems like it would be a lot safer to figure out an alternative way of doing things for everyone (and perhaps helping CAP out a bit in the meantime). 

In regards to getting CAP in this system, I'd say that if they can figure out a way to do it for the Red Cross, military members of foreign nations, military contractors, they may be able to figure it out for us. 

Hmm, wonder if it is any easier for CG Aux members to use (they are authorized limited privileges)

[Eclipse]

Broke this quoting it, see below.

[Ned]

Seems like it would be a lot safer to figure out an alternative way of doing things for everyone (and perhaps helping CAP out a bit in the meantime). 

Well, sure.  We talked about setting up a "CAP member only"  front page for uniform items  with a stand-alone payment system, but it would still need to connect to their fulfillment system.  Which was amazingly complicated and not feasible without significant coding resources.

In regards to getting CAP in this system, I'd say that if they can figure out a way to do it for the Red Cross, military members of foreign nations, military contractors, they may be able to figure it out for us.

I think we may be talking a bit of apples and oranges here.  Red Cross members, foreign military, etc., may certainly be authorized AAFES access, but that is to physical facilities only - not the website which is what I thought we were talking about.  Just like CAP members occupying government quarters also have wide AAFES privileges - but only  at brick and mortar locations.

And while we're all standing here wishing?  What's the current solution?

Oh, I'll bet you already know the answer.  While you are standing around wishing and complaining, the rest of us are using the sources and procedures described in CAPR 39-1, para 1.3:

1.  CAP members have 24/7 web access VG for all CAP uniforms and insignia. 

2.  We also have access to physical AAFES facilities for authorized uniform items.

3.  We also have access for AAFES AFMCSS mail order.  See paragraph 1.3.2.1 for details.  I've used it for the best prices.

4.  And, of course, we can also order from the catalog using phone or fax as described in paragraph 1.3.2.1.  It sounds like there is a temporary issue with some procedures on the AAFES side of the house for this particular method, but those issues are being worked.

But thanks for asking.

[RiverAux]

Their web site says authorized members have access to the ecommerce store and the link of authorized members includes the groups I mentioned.   I certainly wouldn't rule out that their site doesn't explain it correctly. 

[Eclipse]

Oh, I'll bet you already know the answer.  While you are standing around wishing and complaining,

Um, I'm not the one "wishing"...

Perhaps that will change someday . . .

the rest of us are using the sources and procedures described in CAPR 39-1, para 1.3:

Really?

1.  CAP members have 24/7 web access VG for all CAP uniforms and insignia. 

So I guess you missed the part where VG doesn't sell service coats or waist jackets and
gets a pretty good buck more for blues shirts and wheel caps?

2.  We also have access to physical AAFES facilities for authorized uniform items.

Who's "we"?  You know very well that the number of members with physical access to an MCSS,
especially a USAF one is laughably small, not to mention the goat rope it can be to get on some bases.

3.  We also have access for AAFES AFMCSS mail order.  See paragraph 1.3.2.1 for details.  I've used it for the best prices.

4.  And, of course, we can also order from the catalog using phone or fax as described in paragraph 1.3.2.1.  It sounds like there is a temporary issue with some procedures on the AAFES side of the house for this particular method, but those issues are being worked.

Yes, worked because a member had a problem and brought it to the attention of NHQ, meanwhile whomever is
responsible for the relationship with AAFES apparently has better things to do - perhaps he was preoccupied with
ordering foil for the upcoming special edition of the magazine.

Quoting 39-1's policy about doing something when the company has no idea who CAP is, doesn't really amount to much,
which is the point of this thread.  CAP is supposed to have access to all sorts of resources as canonized in
AR's and AFIs, not to mention reciprocal service agreements, but the reality is quite different in many cases
because no one is husbanding these relationships.  The shrinkage of CAP-USAF hasn't made this any better,
but ultimately it's an NHQ issue.

Again, you can deflect all you like, criticize people for taking issue with these kinds of things,
and pretend it's a "new / temporary issue", or, maybe get people to step up and do the jobs they have agreed to do,
whether those people are volunteers, or especially paid staff.

Stuff happens, systems fail, so be it, but there's no excuse for NHQ being unaware of the issue, nor
of not notifying the membership.  This AAFES situation has been a problem since the 90's, as evidenced
by the steady stream of messages and issues as memorialized on this board.  It's neither "new" nor "temporary" unless you're
insinuating that the fix "being worked" is the last time it will be an issue.

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Nuke:
Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?

Why if someone has or states a negative comment based on their life experience (s)he is labelled a hater? Or that (s)he hates something or someone or some group?

Wait, Nuke said something negative about Eclipse, so I will adopt his/her attitude. Nuke, why do you hate Eclipse? See how dumb that sounds? 

[Eclipse]

^ Yeah, I almost said something, but whatever.  It's part and parcel of the "internet of things" and
diminishes the real power of words like that to the point that they have no meaning whatsoever.

These days everybody "hates", is "bullied" or is "triggered"...

Blah.

[MSG Mac]

Wonder how that's going.

Either way...a half mil contract is nothing to sneeze at. No reason they would ever say "CAP whowat?".

Some of their reviews are quite hilarious. If it wasn't for a family business, maybe I'd send a resume in for their ecommerce manager role.

The CAP "Free Cadet Uniforms" don't come from AAFEES, they come directly from the Air Force supply at Lackland AFB.

[PHall]

From Nuke:
Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?

Why if someone has or states a negative comment based on their life experience (s)he is labelled a hater? Or that (s)he hates something or someone or some group?

Wait, Nuke said something negative about Eclipse, so I will adopt his/her attitude. Nuke, why do you hate Eclipse? See how dumb that sounds? 

Luis R. Ramos, why are YOU a hater?  Does it feel better when you're the target?

Please sir, don't continue the stupidity...

[Ned]

Bob,

The absolute weight of unhappiness you bring with you to this board must be quite a burden.

So let's sum up, shall we?

Of the three completely separate vendors that supply uniforms to the membership (AAFES, VG, and AFMCSS), the least-used method (AAFES telephone catalog ordering) apparently has a recent and fixable problem.  In the meantime, all uniform items are available via one or more of the other three alternatives.

You were kind enough to provide some prompt assistance to the cadet OP.

Again, you can deflect all you like, criticize people for taking issue with these kinds of things,
and pretend it's a "new / temporary issue", or, maybe get people to step up and do the jobs they have agreed to do, whether those people are volunteers, or especially paid staff.

I don't (and haven't) criticized people for noting problems and taking the appropriate corrective actions in order to get them fixed. It sounds like Robert H did exactly that when he notified NHQ of the problem.

Stuff happens, systems fail, so be it, but there's no excuse for NHQ being unaware of the issue, nor
of not notifying the membership.  This AAFES situation has been a problem since the 90's, as evidenced
by the steady stream of messages and issues as memorialized on this board.

AAFES is only 1 of the three authorized vendors.  NHQ has arranged for two completely separate methods (AFMCSS and VG) for members to reliably obtain needed uniforms.  Sounds at least a little bit like they are addressing the issue to me.

You yourself provided the links where NHQ lays out the specific procedures for mail and telephone ordering from AAFES.  Between those links and the 39-1, I'm not sure what else NHQ can do to "notify the membership."

36 states have active Air Force installations with MCSS .  It would be interesting to see what percentage of CAP members live within an hour or two of one, but it is likely the majority of our membership.

And for those who don't, the AFMCSS mail order system works fine.

Many members choose to use VG.  As you point out, they don't have service coats.  But they certainly have all the required uniforms.

Some members use the telephone ordering system.  It is admittedly cumbersome, but it has been quick and efficient in the past once your membership card is on file.

And, of course, some members benefit from internal CAP supplies or even commercial sources.

So, not counting internal CAP or commercial supplies, we have three completely separate vendors for CAP uniforms to ensure easy access, decent prices, and constant supply.

But given all of the available resources, the number of members who cannot obtain uniforms or insignia in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable price is virtually non-existent.

Again, thank you for your helpful response to the OP.

[Eclipse]

The absolute weight of unhappiness you bring with you to this board must be quite a burden.

Does pretending the glass is 1/2-full help alleviate the tension headache from the sound of members
asking the same questions and having the same problems they had 10 years ago with no more
resolution on the horizon then...

Perhaps that will change someday . . .

Next you'll ask what I have done to fix the problem.

[SAREXinNY]

Every time I make an AAFES purchase I want to bang my head against the wall.  It's never easy, and always requires multiple follow-up calls and/or me re-sending my CAP ID to them for verification.  I can completely understand the frustration some people are going through with the whole process.  Considering the last time I ordered was nearly two years ago, this issue should have been resolved by now.  It's discouraging to hear that very little has changed.

[Robert Hartigan]

The mail order options does not work, in my opinion formed after my experience. I requested a catalog. Request denied because CAP was not recognized as an authorized buyer. There was no notice of the denial. Follow up phone call revealed MCSS did not have a method to verify the copy of my membership card was valid; I got the terrorist speech that anyone could photoshop the card for nefarious reasons. I didn't respond, but I wanted to say terrorist use eBay.

Asked for the catalog anyway. Told no.  Started over thinking maybe someone else  would  open the envelope. Sent copies of regulations, AF and CAP, outlining  the authorization to purchase along with copies of my membership card, driver's license and passport.

Waited, waited, waited. Meanwhile found the telephone ordering info about calling Lackland MCSS. Put order together in late September 2014. A few phone calls and a membership verification email from KC Jones and my order was placed the first week of October and had it before the weekend.

I am 4 1/2 hours away from WPAFB. I am making the trip to MCSS to get uniforms for my new senior members because I don't want them to feel left out. The kicker is this is a 3 minute order by telephone that I should be able to make at lunch that has been turned into a vacation day and an all day drive for a 30 minute in store visit.

[LTC Don]

The mail order options does not work, in my opinion formed after my experience. I requested a catalog. Request denied because CAP was not recognized as an authorized buyer. There was no notice of the denial. Follow up phone call revealed MCSS did not have a method to verify the copy of my membership card was valid; I got the terrorist speech that anyone could photoshop the card for nefarious reasons. I didn't respond, but I wanted to say terrorist use eBay.

Asked for the catalog anyway. Told no.  Started over thinking maybe someone else  would  open the envelope. Sent copies of regulations, AF and CAP, outlining  the authorization to purchase along with copies of my membership card, driver's license and passport.

Waited, waited, waited. Meanwhile found the telephone ordering info about calling Lackland MCSS. Put order together in late September 2014. A few phone calls and a membership verification email from KC Jones and my order was placed the first week of October and had it before the weekend.

I am 4 1/2 hours away from WPAFB. I am making the trip to MCSS to get uniforms for my new senior members because I don't want them to feel left out. The kicker is this is a 3 minute order by telephone that I should be able to make at lunch that has been turned into a vacation day and an all day drive for a 30 minute in store visit.

Major props to you for being willing to help out your squadron colleagues like that. Taking a vacation day(s) for CAP is a very expensive proposition for any member, among the other incurred time, talent, and treasure.

[TheTravelingAirman]

I would like to point out to anyone who cares, every base I've been to so far, the Military Clothing Sales Store (MCSS) was AAFES. It's just another thing they run, like the BX/PX, shoppette, or food court. All fall under their umbrella.

That said, since I am in the MCSS about once a week for Base Honor Guard stuff, I can inquire about catalogs or whatnot for any east coast guys. I'd love to help the other regions, but that's a lot of people. Gotta start small.

[Eclipse]

I would like to point out to anyone who cares, every base I've been to so far, the Military Clothing Sales Store (MCSS) was AAFES. It's just another thing they run, like the BX/PX, shoppette, or food court. All fall under their umbrella.

Not all bases CAP members have access to are Air Force or Army, and not all AAFES Exchanges are created equal.
My wing has two major bases - one USAF and one Navy - and access to them is not ubiquitous or even necessarily possible some days,
and that doesn't take into account that the USAF base, while a Major Command, is 4-6+ hours away from the major population
center of the state, and the other nearest base is 2+ hours in the other direction, and again, access isn't a given.

The Navy base has always been generous with CAP members, and the NAVEx can tailor items brought in, but other then a small rack
of grade insignia, and generic things like boots, blousers, etc., there hasn't been much a CAP member can wear available there since
the Navy started moving over to NWUs some 5-6 years ago.  (Though nothing says "I forgot" like a cadet wearing an 8-pointed cover.)

I've been to at least one AAFES exchange that was the equivalent of a quicky mart with a small uniform area that looked more like an afterthought
then a supply center - if that's the one "within 1-2 hours drive" it's not going to be much use, especially for anything that is harder to get.

I can't even imagine the angst level of someone willing to drive 4+ hours to buy uniform parts only to get there and find out
the base commander has a CoC coming up, or an inspection, etc., and the store looks like a Home Depot the week before a hurricane,
or worse, there's a last-minute force protection or other issue that precludes access anyone but key personnel - BTDT plenty of times.
We can also add the 30 minutes to an hour plus you might spend at the VC on a busy weekend hoping to get a day pass - and "calling ahead"
doesn't necessarily mean anything.

You can filter out many reserve and guard bases as well, especially if they have little or no permanently stationed personnel.
Those that have exchanges get gutted on UTA weekends for the same reason(s) mentioned above, and/or don't carry much to begin with.

36 states may have a USAF MCSS, but that does not equal "36 places CAP members can buy uniforms" - and knowing the
number of members who have reasonable access to these facilities should be something NHQ has at its finger tips, and those relationships
should be the direct responsibility of someone at NHQ in supply or vendor relations.  This smacks of the messages sent out last month
by the AE directorate wanting to know which units are within 50 miles of a military base, again something NHQ should know without
having to access the field.  Considering the small number of bases these days, and the small number of units, and the free tools available
to anyone with a zip code listing.  (Can I opt-out of the foundation spam and have a letter go to the nearest base reminding them that
members should be allowed to buy uniform items?)

Frankly, to suggest that MCSS is a viable option for CAP members, except for the few that already have circumstantial access to
an appropriate military base, ignores the reality of the current state of members getting on those bases at all, not to mention the
shrinkage of the number of bases in relation to CAP member locations.

[Storm Chaser]

So what is the solution?

[Robert Hartigan]

I received a direct answer from the MCS Manager regarding telephone ordering. It is not a state law issue as previously reported. She said it is matter of their policy not to accept credit card phone orders anymore from CAP members because of non payment issues. I am not sure or understand why they would release merchandise without credit card authorization, but someone, sometime, messed up our reputation. This is why we can't have nice things!

[Storm Chaser]

That doesn't seem like a reasonable answer. Nevertheless, this is an issue that must be addressed not by AAFES employees or our members, but by the National Commander with the Air Force leadership.

[Ned]

Not all bases CAP members have access to are Air Force or Army, and not all AAFES Exchanges are created equal.

Of course.  Many members can find at least some uniform items at other places like NEX or even Guard / Reserve facilities.  That's great, but like commercial sources (BDU.com, Army-Navy stores, etc.), pretty much outside the scope of our discussion.

But even the most modest AAFES location will almost always have the basic uniform items (service dress components, footwear, etc) that CAP members are permitted to purchase.  And if for some reason a particular it is not in stock, they will cheerfully order it.  They have certainly done so for me when they were out of a particular size, for example.

36 states may have a USAF MCSS, but that does not equal "36 places CAP members can buy uniforms"

Absolutely true.  Because the actual number of large AF facilities in the US is much larger than 36.  It's over 60.  (Several large wings like Florida, California, and Texas have multiple large AFBs.)

And several bases are located in areas convenient to multiple wings.  Example:  McGuire AFB, in New Jersey, which is a little less than an hour's drive from Philly and a little over an hour from Staten Island, Wilmington Delaware, and Aberdeen, Maryland.

Frankly, to suggest that MCSS is a viable option for CAP members, except for the few that already have circumstantial access to
an appropriate military base, ignores the reality of the current state of members getting on those bases at all, not to mention the
shrinkage of the number of bases in relation to CAP member locations.

While most members probably have an AFMCSS within a couple of hours, I can only agree that we can not rely on MCSS as the "total solution."  Which is why we have multiple vendors and multiple sources, including VG with 24/7 web availability, AAFES via mail order and (cumbersome) telephone access.

Plus internal CAP supplies.  And members can also choose commercial suppliers for some items.

The issue is "can all CAP members obtain necessary uniforms and insignia reasonably conveniently and at a decent price." 

The solution is "have multiple vendors and purchasing methods."  The AAFES telephone access is a small part of the solution, and to the extent that it is having issues, it is being fixed.  But even if it cannot be repaired, CAP members will still have essentially the same access to uniforms that they have had for decades.  The overwhelming majority of members are able to provide themselves with uniforms using our existing vendor constellation.

This particular glass is far more than half-full. 

[LTC Don]

The solution is "have multiple vendors and purchasing methods."  The AAFES telephone access is a small part of the solution, and to the extent that it is having issues, it is being fixed.  But even if it cannot be repaired, CAP members will still have essentially the same access to uniforms that they have had for decades.  The overwhelming majority of members are able to provide themselves with uniforms using our existing vendor constellation.

This particular glass is far more than half-full.

Wow! 

I try to stay out of these CAPTalk slingfests, but that is one huge honkin' pitcher of Kool-Aid right there.

[Shuman 14]

Wow! 

I try to stay out of these CAPTalk slingfests, but that is one huge honkin' pitcher of Kool-Aid right there.

[Al Sayre]

Might be nice if NHQ would set it up so at least those with fairly large orders could do it through NHQ and someone would drive down the street and place/pickup the order for them.  Add on the shipping and 10 bucks for the trouble... 

[Eclipse]

This particular glass is far more than half-full.

Apparently from your vantage point, it is.

The reality of the rank and file members disagrees.  NHQ purports to set up a lot of things,
but the real world keeps getting in the way.

[NIN]

Sadly, the AF base nearest me (Hanscom) is apparently as defensible as Fort Knox to the rank-and-file CAP member.   This is per my unit commander, who has the most recent experience with trying to get to the MCSS there.

I haven't been there in YEARS (like seriously, almost 10 years maybe?) so I don't know how accurate the assessment of the accessibility is, but he is not the only person I've heard this from, either.  Since the base is like an hour or more from me, I haven't even bothered to try in the face of "don't bother trying to get on base. You can't."

We used to take squadron trips there to the MCSS and Airman's Attic/Thrift Store, but the squadron stopped doing that when access became "difficult."

[PHall]

Sadly, the AF base nearest me (Hanscom) is apparently as defensible as Fort Knox to the rank-and-file CAP member.   This is per my unit commander, who has the most recent experience with trying to get to the MCSS there.

I haven't been there in YEARS (like seriously, almost 10 years maybe?) so I don't know how accurate the assessment of the accessibility is, but he is not the only person I've heard this from, either.  Since the base is like an hour or more from me, I haven't even bothered to try in the face of "don't bother trying to get on base. You can't."

We used to take squadron trips there to the MCSS and Airman's Attic/Thrift Store, but the squadron stopped doing that when access became "difficult."

Interesting considering that there are no aircraft assigned to this base.  And all of their "secret squirrel" research goes on inside of "very" secure buildings.
Interesting indeed!!!

[Luis R. Ramos]

Mr Hall, If you do not like it, do not answer. I have to sit through many, many topics that are as silly or more, and do not say anything.

Why do you have to criticize everything, as if you have a chip on your shoulder?

[PHall]

Mr Hall, If you do not like it, do not answer. I have to sit through many, many topics that are as silly or more, and do not say anything.

Why do you have to criticize everything, as if you have a chip on your shoulder?

Oh so it's okay for others, like you for example, to criticize things and I'm not allowed to?

Yeah, that ain't happening.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Mr Hall, did you read who was the one that first stated something about being a hater? Apparently not. You should have pointed your rant towards Nuke, not me. Nuke said Eclipse was a hater.

Or are you one of those that label everyone that says something negative about something a hater?

[Nuke52]

Mr Hall, If you do not like it, do not answer. I have to sit through many, many topics that are as silly or more, and do not say anything.

Mr Ramos, unfortunately you just passed on a perfect opportunity to do just that.  Too bad. For us, that is...

[Nuke52]

Mr Hall, did you read who was the one that first stated something about being a hater? Apparently not. You should have pointed your rant towards Nuke, not me. Nuke said Eclipse was a hater.

Or are you one of those that label everyone that says something negative about something a hater?

Actually, I didn't.  I said, and I quote, "Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?"  Not the same thing, but it does illustrate that perhaps a basic reading/reading comprehension test should be a pre-requisite for posting on CAP Talk... 

More importantly, however, it shows that you need to turn down the squelch on your sarcasm detector.  Or maybe dial down the sensitivity of that chip on your shoulder...  Though I fully appreciate voice intonation is difficult to pick up from the written word, read in context with the quoted passages, the reference to Kool-aid, and the periods of ellipse following the jab at NHQ's ability to make anything "fine" simply by being aware, it should have been fairly clear that I was on Eclipse's side of that argument.  Maybe the true lesson here is really for me:  I should overdo the use of emoticons to allow for the comprehension of the LCD.  Or I could just continue on as now, not caring...    (see what I did there?)

Bob, I thought your sensors were better tuned than that. My sincerest apologies!    

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Nuke:Actually, I didn't.  I said, and I quote, "Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?"  Not the same thing, but it does illustrate...

Most people that use the word hater start by painting those people as full of hate. So from why ya gotta hate? to using the word hater is not far. Maybe I read too much into it, but that is what I see in newspapers and the media. However, if you do not care, why answer my message at all? 

[Eclipse]

I'm just gonna shake it off...

Dover Police DashCam Confessional (Shake it Off)

[SarDragon]

Hey, guys, aren't the senior members supposed to also be the adult members? Have you forgotten that there still some cadets reading this forum? Fine example we're setting here.

[Private Investigator]

Wow! 

I try to stay out of these CAPTalk slingfests, but that is one huge honkin' pitcher of Kool-Aid right there.

I need a little something something in my Kool-Aid along with a cookie   

[Nuke52]

From Nuke:Actually, I didn't.  I said, and I quote, "Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?"  Not the same thing, but it does illustrate...

Most people that use the word hater start by painting those people as full of hate. So from why ya gotta hate? to using the word hater is not far. Maybe I read too much into it, but that is what I see in newspapers and the media.

Luis, yes, you read too much into it--especially considering that the offense you read into it was 180 degrees out from the playful jocularity that was actually written into it. 

However, if you do not care, why answer my message at all? 

I confess:  in a moment of weakness I succumbed to the romantic notion that some measure of education may yet have been possible.  I suppose only time will tell, but the prognosis is not good.

[Nuke52]

Hey, guys, aren't the senior members supposed to also be the adult members? Have you forgotten that there still some cadets reading this forum? Fine example we're setting here.

Yeah, seriously guys, does Full Time Cadet's thread really deserve this?

[Everyone run, the fun police are on the scene!]

[JC004]

I don't understand why they would have "non-payment" issues or why they'd be unique to CAP.  I've always known vendors to either bill a card when the order is taken, or right before shipping.  Card doesn't clear - you notify the customer and do not ship the order until the card is cleared.  I had a card get declined for what the issuer regarded as an unusual purchase (a little over-protective in that case, but whatever).  Was notified, and was able to quickly get it authorized and processed.  No problem for me or them...

[Eclipse]

"Non-payment issues"?  It sounds like they are just making up stuff that "sounds good" on the fly now.

[Mitchell 1969]

Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/veterans/2014/10/17/proposed-online-aafes-shopping-for-vets-inches-forward/17434589/

[abdsp51]

You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

[AlphaSigOU]

Back when I was 'doing time' at 'Kwajatraz Federal Penitentiary' (it's a Kwaj thing... you wouldn't understand! ) my civilian contractor CAC was endorsed with 'Commissary', 'Overseas MWR' and 'Unlimited Exchange', which allowed me to purchase at the brick-and-mortar commissaries and exchanges, plus stay at the overseas MWR resorts. Online access to the Exchange web site was allowed, except for purchasing military uniforms online. However, I was able to talk to the AAFES store manager on Kwaj and he was able to procure for me a complete mess dress uniform when I needed to get one for NSC.

[Al Sayre]

Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/veterans/2014/10/17/proposed-online-aafes-shopping-for-vets-inches-forward/17434589/

Anyone who uses the VA can also use the VCS (Veterans Canteen Service) just like mail order AAFES/NEX.  Good prices on really expensive stuff, but they don't carry the moderate or low priced items a lot of people prefer.  For example, you can buy a pair of $50 Levis for ~$35 but a pair of $12 Wrangler jeans is out of the question...

[Eclipse]

You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

Hm...maybe, maybe not - it's canonized in an AR and AFI that CAP has access. and as a DOD agency AAFES bound to respect that.  Base access to get to
the stores is a separate issue.

With that said, if AAFES says "no mas", or is going to be difficult to work with, then NHQ either needs to intervene or find another source.
The suggestion that mail order, literally "filling out a form and putting a check in the mail and hoping that something magically appears
in the mailbox 'at some point" is simply ridiculous in a day and age where you can buy cars and houses with a click.

[LSThiker]

Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

That may or may not be true.  AAFES is contending that it only requires a "policy change".  However, DoD officials are unsure and a legal review is required.  It may require a change in the law.

Also, all three exchange services have to agree to extend the benefit.  So if AAFES supports it but Navy Exchange Service does not, then the idea is stuck.  Further, the exchange services must demonstrate that it won't negatively affect supply to current service members and retirees. 

[SarDragon]

Why would NEX/MCX need to agree? There are very few CAP usable items available at these places. I know, I shop there all the time.

[LSThiker]

Why would NEX/MCX need to agree? There are very few CAP usable items available at these places. I know, I shop there all the time.

I was refering to opening the exchange services to all veterans as was discussed in the linked article. I would assume that the DoD requires all exchange services to have similar policies in order to maintain a consensus in SOPs.  As it pertains to CAP, it may not be as simple as a policy change as suggested as it may depend on the contracts and rules governing the exchange services.

[abdsp51]

You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

Hm...maybe, maybe not - it's canonized in an AR and AFI that CAP has access. and as a DOD agency AAFES bound to respect that.  Base access to get to
the stores is a separate issue.

With that said, if AAFES says "no mas", or is going to be difficult to work with, then NHQ either needs to intervene or find another source.
The suggestion that mail order, literally "filling out a form and putting a check in the mail and hoping that something magically appears
in the mailbox 'at some point" is simply ridiculous in a day and age where you can buy cars and houses with a click.

The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax. 

[Eclipse]

The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax.

It makes no distinction between sales channels, nor does it appear to allow for one service to have different access requirements then others.
CAP is only mentioned in two places, and in the same way as other services.

This appears to be another place where the relationship was set up at the bare-bones level, with a hope that "it'll usually work OK", instead
of insuring that it does.  As JC pointed out, these are the easily rectified pinch points that impact retention - a member finally
gets the $300 together for service dress, and it's a root canal to try and give someone the money.  It goes to member confidence and
the idea that CAP is a "partner" not a "contractor" (actually, contractors get treated better on most bases).  That story then gets propagated
at the next meeting, and the story is out that "you can't buy from AAFES any more".  Rinse, repeat.

You can't fall back on "we're working on it", either, because this issue of AAFES people acting like CAP people are trying to pull a fast one
has been a problem for a decade, at least.

[abdsp51]

The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax.

It makes no distinction between sales channels, nor does it appear to allow for one service to have different access requirements then others.
CAP is only mentioned in two places, and in the same way as other services.

This appears to be another place where the relationship was set up at the bare-bones level, with a hope that "it'll usually work OK", instead
of insuring that it does. 

You can't fall back on "we're working on it", either, because this issue of AAFES people acting like CAP people are trying to pull a fast one
has been a problem for a decade, at least.

Sir,  I can tell you that if it's not in the AFI they do not have to do it.  And I'm sure if you look it says AAFES facilities.

[Eclipse]

Sir,  I can tell you that if it's not in the AFI they do not have to do it.  And I'm sure if you look it says AAFES facilities.

Of course I looked - it doesn't. The term "exchange" is used as a generic term for all sales outlets including e-commerce throughout the document.
Ultimately all it says is that CAP has access for uniform sales and food and limited other items when assigned to a base or at a base activity.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf   Page 26-27

"7–10. Limited exchange privileges
Limited exchange access applies to the United States and all U.S. territories and possessions (except as noted).
Generally, it excludes tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, and military uniforms. Table 7–2 lists individuals,
organizations, and activities entitled to purchases from AAFES."

14. Servicemembers of the Civil Air Patrol in a travel status and
occupying government quarters on a DOD installation.

a. For purchases other than uniforms, they will be identified with
their current membership card, their travel authorization, and evidence
they are occupying government quarters on the installation.
b. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is
shown.
c. No state tax-free tobacco items.
d. No tax-free alcohol beverages.

15. Civil Air Patrol cadets.

a. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is
shown.
b. All food and beverage sold at any AAFES food activity, if consumed
on post.

Now, Page 29 has some verbiage regarding credit card sales, but it is very generic and not specific to CAP or anyone else.
d. Credit sales. Authority for credit card policies, procedures, limitations, and controls governing acceptance of
credit cards rests with the AAFES director and chief executive officer.

[JC004]

You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

It's really too much to ask to have the ability to purchase the uniform in a reasonable way?  If CAP members can't purchase online, get onto a base, or order by phone, having a way to get the uniform is unreasonable?

If they change the Free Cadet Uniform program as proposed, cadets will need to purchase their uniforms - in a way yet to be determined, after jumping through hoops, and getting a lot of "I don't knows" from the people at their new squadron.  What an excellent way to welcome new cadets.

I don't see anyone demanding access to MWR facilities.  I see people who would like to purchase the uniforms required...

[Eclipse]

I've never had any issue using MWR for CAP activities, not so for buying a uniform.

[abdsp51]

It's really too much to ask to have the ability to purchase the uniform in a reasonable way?  If CAP members can't purchase online, get onto a base, or order by phone, having a way to get the uniform is unreasonable?

If they change the Free Cadet Uniform program as proposed, cadets will need to purchase their uniforms - in a way yet to be determined, after jumping through hoops, and getting a lot of "I don't knows" from the people at their new squadron.  What an excellent way to welcome new cadets.

I don't see anyone demanding access to MWR facilities.  I see people who would like to purchase the uniforms required...

Sir,
Not debating the feasibility of getting uniforms.  I know it's an issue my issue as I have said is with members saying we are the AF's Auxiliary as if that grants them a sense of entitlement.  The AFI has said that CAP can make purchases and the scope of the purchases. This can be interpreted as Eclipse has as AAFES as a whole to include their website or as use of the physical facility itself. Getting on base is a non issue and can be quite easy to solve provided membership wants to do the legwork.  For example in Tucson we ran into issue and it took me calling the desk a couple of times or going to the gate to fix it.  Within a couple of months there I had it access for the unit worked out a little bit better.  Months after that it was really easy for the org as a whole to get on. 

Ultimately the WG/CC has the final say on it and if he/she doesn't want the org on base that's pretty much the end of it.