How distinctive is "distinctive" to the Air Force?

[abdsp51]

I would like to add that I did inquire to NHQ about any memo etc for the change for the change being punitive in nature.  The response I got was the "berry boards" came about to provide distinctiveness as request by the AF in 1990.  Nothing punitive is mentioned or hinted at. 

And AFJROTC has very distinct uniform items that separate them from MA blue in most aspects so I don't think some AFJROTC is going to be able to troll for salutes to long before his ASI deals with him. 

[ZigZag911]

You're not going to find anything in writing from an Air Force source describing the berry boards as punitive.

I assure you, however, as someone who was a long time member even then, with some highly placed sources of information, that they were, largely due to a National CC making himself a  CAP major general  (or, more accurately, convincing the National Board to do so) without USAF approval.

The AF folks at that funny five sided building in DC were decidedly not amused!

[MSG Mac]

The same guy who told someone he wasn't selected to command a squadron because " There has never been (insert a negative adjective to describe a person whose ancestry dates back to the Niger River basin) and as far as he was concerned there never would be."

[jacob]

I think the short answer is that the "distinctiveness" requirement you speak of is found in AFI 10-2701 that governs CAP, and not in any AFI or other instructions that govern the uniforms of the State Defense Forces authorized by the US Consitution and various federal and state laws.

Are there such USAF regulations?  That's a sincere question, Colonel.  It seems that, from what I know of SDF's (I almost joined one), they take their uniform rules from the National Guard regs of their various states.

Honestly, I am fairly sure there are, at least for the Army side,  But I can't point you to them.  I suspect if you look at the various SDF uniform manuals, they will have some sort of citation in them.  For example, I'm pretty sure the Army version requires the red nameplates that are worn fairly universally on the SDF Class A uniforms.

But I am most assuredly not an SDF uniform wonk.  I have trouble keeping track of CAP's uniform issues.

For those who are interested in State Defense Force (SDF) uniforms, the two pertinent federal regulations are AR 670-1 (Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia) and NGR 10-4 (National Guard Interaction with State Defense Forces).

Paragraph c (page 316)of section 30–8 (Wear of a uniform similar to the Army uniform) of AR 670-1 (dated February 2005) reads:

State defense forces (SDF) may adopt the Army service and BDU uniforms, provided all service uniform buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S. Army. State insignia will not include "United States," "U.S.," "U.S. Army," or the Great Seal of the United States. Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap. The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, "Texas State Guard"). The utility uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of "U.S. Army" over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

Paragraph 2-2.d (page 1) of NGR 10-4 (dated November 2011) reads:

Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.

[flyboy53]

I suspect what is happening here is that you have a Georgia State Defense Forces officer who has been appointed as the Adjutant General and, as such, he is wearing the uniform of the state defense forces until he's federally recognized.

Otherwise, this officer would be out of uniform Air Force-wise because any state adjutant general is actually serving at the very least a Title 32 active duty tour.

In the meanetime, I scanned the Georgia National Guard website and find this very interesting.

[skymaster]

For those who are interested in State Defense Force (SDF) uniforms, the two pertinent federal regulations are AR 670-1 (Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia) and NGR 10-4 (National Guard Interaction with State Defense Forces).

Paragraph c (page 316)of section 30–8 (Wear of a uniform similar to the Army uniform) of AR 670-1 (dated February 2005) reads:

State defense forces (SDF) may adopt the Army service and BDU uniforms, provided all service uniform buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S. Army. State insignia will not include "United States," "U.S.," "U.S. Army," or the Great Seal of the United States. Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap. The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, "Texas State Guard"). The utility uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of "U.S. Army" over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

Paragraph 2-2.d (page 1) of NGR 10-4 (dated November 2011) reads:

Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.
[/quote]

Different individual states interpret and implement this regulation in various ways. Texas is a prime example, with their Texas State Guard uniform. The Texas military uniform worn by most of the Texas State Guard is similar to US Army's "ACU" military uniforms, though with different markings; the Maritime Regiment's uniform is similar to the Marine's MARPAT Digital Desert uniform. Air units wear a Texas variation of the U.S. Air Force uniform. (And their variation of the AF uniform, like the current GA Adjutant General's uniform, is MUCH closer in resemblance to the active AF uniform than anything CAP is currently authorised to wear. Apparently TX cutouts and different buttons are distinctive enough for members of their Air Component to not raise the ire of Ma Blue).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(And their variation of the AF uniform, like the current GA Adjutant General's uniform, is MUCH closer in resemblance to the active AF uniform than anything CAP is currently authorised to wear. Apparently TX cutouts and different buttons are distinctive enough for members of their Air Component to not raise the ire of Ma Blue).

That's what gets me...especially with all the Air Force installations in Texas.

Colonel Lee, God bless him, would probably say that it's because the Air Force has direct control over how we wear their uniform and they're not concerned with how the TXSDF AW wears it...I just do not understand it, especially given that the TXSDF AW, due to their support function to the TXANG, interact MUCH closer with Air Force units than we do.

One would think Ma Blue's ire would be raised just as much by an overweight TXSDF AW troop walking around Ellington ANGB or especially Lackland AFB (bad example for the new trainee Airmen) wearing their uniform with modifications a lot less visible than ours have to be as by a "fat or fuzzy" CAP officer doing the same.

Maybe they really don't care.

[PHall]

(And their variation of the AF uniform, like the current GA Adjutant General's uniform, is MUCH closer in resemblance to the active AF uniform than anything CAP is currently authorised to wear. Apparently TX cutouts and different buttons are distinctive enough for members of their Air Component to not raise the ire of Ma Blue).

That's what gets me...especially with all the Air Force installations in Texas.

Colonel Lee, God bless him, would probably say that it's because the Air Force has direct control over how we wear their uniform and they're not concerned with how the TXSDF AW wears it...I just do not understand it, especially given that the TXSDF AW, due to their support function to the TXANG, interact MUCH closer with Air Force units than we do.

One would think Ma Blue's ire would be raised just as much by an overweight TXSDF AW troop walking around Ellington ANGB or especially Lackland AFB (bad example for the new trainee Airmen) wearing their uniform with modifications a lot less visible than ours have to be as by a "fat or fuzzy" CAP officer doing the same.

Maybe they really don't care.

Cyborg, have you ever seen anybody from the TXSDF Air Wing? 
I know that the California State Military Reserve members have to meet weight and grooming standards just to be a member.
And I suspect that the same rules apply there too.

So, you got anything else?

[skymaster]

(And their variation of the AF uniform, like the current GA Adjutant General's uniform, is MUCH closer in resemblance to the active AF uniform than anything CAP is currently authorised to wear. Apparently TX cutouts and different buttons are distinctive enough for members of their Air Component to not raise the ire of Ma Blue).
[/quote]

That's what gets me...especially with all the Air Force installations in Texas.

Colonel Lee, God bless him, would probably say that it's because the Air Force has direct control over how we wear their uniform and they're not concerned with how the TXSDF AW wears it...I just do not understand it, especially given that the TXSDF AW, due to their support function to the TXANG, interact MUCH closer with Air Force units than we do.

One would think Ma Blue's ire would be raised just as much by an overweight TXSDF AW troop walking around Ellington ANGB or especially Lackland AFB (bad example for the new trainee Airmen) wearing their uniform with modifications a lot less visible than ours have to be as by a "fat or fuzzy" CAP officer doing the same.

Maybe they really don't care.
[/quote]

Cyborg, have you ever seen anybody from the TXSDF Air Wing? 
I know that the California State Military Reserve members have to meet weight and grooming standards just to be a member.
And I suspect that the same rules apply there too.

So, you got anything else?
[/quote]



Based on the photo above, taken at a recent swearing-in ceremony for the Sheppard Detachment of one of the Texas State Guard Air Wings, I would guess that Ma Blue also doesn't have a problem with their wear of a utility uniform very close in appearance to theirs, either.  In fact, other than the blue-on-ABU "TEXAS STATE GUARD" branch tape in place of the U.S. AIR FORCE branch tape, it is exactly the same. 

[Eclipse]

Cyborg, have you ever seen anybody from the TXSDF Air Wing? 
I know that the California State Military Reserve members have to meet weight and grooming standards just to be a member.
And I suspect that the same rules apply there too.

So, you got anything else?

So is that it?  Height / weight / grooming?  Nothing about being confused with the military?  How about mission needs?

Because if that's it, then let's own that, accept that likely the majority of the membership will >never< meet military
standards, and move on with an actual "uniform".

And for the record, there's plenty of SDF's and similar non-military organizations whose members wear military variants
and there's no attention to height/weight.

This discussion begins and ends with someone indicating what the real issues are, and then accepting the consequences
of those statements. CAP & the USAF has been dancing around the truth for 20 years or more, to no one's benefit.

The simple fact of the matter is that the service branches have neither the will, nor the resources, to fight the court battles required
to make these other organizations cease and desist.  It would be protracted, expensive, and alienate a lot of people, to
no advantage to anyone.  The USAF can direct CAP any way it wants to, so it does, as is their right and authority.

[lordmonar]

I think it has to do with "does anyone care" syndrom.

a) there is a USC that controls wear of military uniforms.
b) No one really knows that SDF's exists.

We in CAP get a hard time about it (at least here on the internet) because we actuallly have a CAP-USAF function and 15 or so years ago we screwed the pooch and got spanked for it.

In the last 15 years we have not been very good boys and girls.....ergo we are slow in getting back to where we were before the Barry Boards.

The SDF's don't fall under any federal service and so you would have to have a major foul up for the services to decide to have a talk with a Governor so he can take care of his problem children.......and this has happened in the past IIRC UT SDF was disbanded because they were turning into a neo-nazi organisation (Godwin's Law does not apply).

The federal government does not go after military fakers all that aggressively anyway.......I don't see them going toe to toe with a state govenor about it.

On the CAP side of things.

I do beleive though....that since MGen Carr was elected we have been pretty good at keeping our organisation in the clear and with the governance changes we are on a better path to getting in a position to ask to be more "Air Force" like......if that is what our organisation wants.

Rumor has it....the National Uniform Committee is almost ready to relase the new changes to 39-1 to be sent up to USAF for approval.   Who knows....maybe we are going to get lest distinctive soon.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg, have you ever seen anybody from the TXSDF Air Wing? 
I know that the California State Military Reserve members have to meet weight and grooming standards just to be a member.
And I suspect that the same rules apply there too.

So, you got anything else?

Question 1: No.  I haven't been to Texas in decades.  I have, however, seen SDF's from a few other states.  I had one actively recruiting me.

CASMR may well require H/W/G standards, but I have seen SDF personnel from other states who would not meet their standards.

Question 2: I know you do not approve of CAP looking more like the AF, and you did not approve of the CSU.  Even when I suggested replacing the white aviator shirt with a blue, civilian one, you went down the road of "it'll piss the AF off," without knowing that for sure.  I know you will never agree with my stances, and I do not agree with yours. 

However, I question why you waited to comment on this topic until I commented.  I cannot speak for the entire membership of CAP, but I do know that there are a lot of people in CAP (especially those who were around during the berry boards days) who see a huge double standard WRT the way we are treated with the AF uniform viz. the way they seemingly look the other way on other organisations who wear their uniform, including their own membership.  I remember when I was in the ANG there were personnel on my own base who would not have met CAP H/W standards, let alone AF...but that was many years ago.

If you wish to advocate for the status quo, that is your right.  I choose not to.  That is my right.

Eclipse, I think I know what you're getting at about having a uniform for the entire membership.  I agree with you in many ways.  However, I do not think it will ever happen.  We came close to that with the CSU, and look what happened.  There are plenty within CAP who say "we already have that...make everyone wear the aviator greys," and there are probably an equal amount of people who say "that uniform stinks."

So I think it's a "never the twain shall meet" issue.

[PHall]

Cyborg, I don't know where you got the thought in your head that I don't want CAP to be closer to the Air Force, but you're dead wrong.
I have no problems with the CAP Air Force style uniforms either. As a matter of fact, I wish they could look more like the Air Force.

I do have problems with wearing the Wing Patch and the Reverse Flag patches on the BDU. The Army wears patches on the shoulders, the Air Force doesn't.

The biggest problem I had with the CSU is the way it came about. As in a "under-the-table, backroom deal".

The attitudes of a few folks who wore the uniform out here in CAWG didn't help my opinion of it either.

But like you said, you have your opinion and I have mine. And I shall leave it at that.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

PHall - PM sent.

Rumor has it....the National Uniform Committee is almost ready to relase the new changes to 39-1 to be sent up to USAF for approval.   Who knows....maybe we are going to get lest distinctive soon.

Perhaps, but the possibility also exists that the new 39-1 will only serve to codify the status quo, though hopefully it would clear up confusion/loopholes.

[lordmonar]

PHall - PM sent.

Rumor has it....the National Uniform Committee is almost ready to relase the new changes to 39-1 to be sent up to USAF for approval.   Who knows....maybe we are going to get lest distinctive soon.

Perhaps, but the possibility also exists that the new 39-1 will only serve to codify the status quo, though hopefully it would clear up confusion/loopholes.

At least that is a step in the right direction.  We can't prove to the USAF that we can follow the regs when the regs are so poorly written.

[abdsp51]

We can get closer by having a clear cut language uniform manual and enforcement of it. 

[Storm Chaser]

Just like almost everyone here, I used to hate (or dislike) some of the "distinctiveness" of the CAP uniform. I remember the blue epaulet ranks and even got to wear the maroon ones. I never understood the cloth insignias with blue background on BDUs; and even less, the grey epaulets on the blue service dress coat. For a long time, I wished our CAP uniforms would look more like Air Force uniforms. After all, we are the official U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

But now I get it. There are just too many members that can't follow the rules and do all sort of crazy things with their uniforms. I just came from a wing conference and was amazed with some of the things I saw coming from ranking and/or experienced individuals. The same thing happens with field/utility uniforms (BDUs, flight suits, etc.). It is no wonder why the Air Force doesn't want us to look more like them.

I am currently in the Air Force Reserve and have seen my share of Reservists who seem lax with the uniform. But the things that I see in CAP, which are far worse, make me wonder if we wouldn't be better off without the Air Force-style uniform. And while I do like wearing my Air Force-style uniforms, I agree with Eclipse that it would be better if we had just one of each type of uniform as opposed to two or more.

[flyboy53]

Just like almost everyone here, I used to hate (or dislike) some of the "distinctiveness" of the CAP uniform. I remember the blue epaulet ranks and even got to wear the maroon ones. I never understood the cloth insignias with blue background on BDUs; and even less, the grey epaulets on the blue service dress coat. For a long time, I wished our CAP uniforms would look more like Air Force uniforms. After all, we are the official U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

But now I get it. There are just too many members that can't follow the rules and do all sort of crazy things with their uniforms. I just came from a wing conference and was amazed with some of the things I saw coming from ranking and/or experienced individuals. The same thing happens with field/utility uniforms (BDUs, flight suits, etc.). It is no wonder why the Air Force doesn't want us to look more like them.

I am currently in the Air Force Reserve and have seen my share of Reservists who seem lax with the uniform. But the things that I see in CAP, which are far worse, make me wonder if we wouldn't be better off without the Air Force-style uniform. And while I do like wearing my Air Force-style uniforms, I agree with Eclipse that it would be better if we had just one of each type of uniform as opposed to two or more.

Don't kid yourself. The reason why we wear gray shoulder marks isn't so much about standards as it is about the politics at the Air Staff level, and issues from the past where certain senior CAP officers took certain liberities in an Air Force-looking uniform. You can go on ANY Air Force/AFRES/or ANG base and see infractions or what I will chose to call exceptions to policy in terms of Air Force uniform standards. Certainly, uniform standards in the Civil Air Patrol can be interesting at times, but that has more to do with cost, lack of availability and geographically separated distance from those points where uniform standards are strongly enforced.

Don't believe me, travel to a remote Air Force installation sometime.

Finally, as an Air Force Reservist who seems to be equipped to point out uniform infractions, it is your responsbility to point out those infractions to the individual involved in order to correct them -- not to get on a soap box in this environment.

[Storm Chaser]

Don't kid yourself.

Don't worry; I won't.

You can go on ANY Air Force/AFRES/or ANG base and see infractions or what I will chose to call exceptions to policy in terms of Air Force uniform standards...  Don't believe me, travel to a remote Air Force installation sometime.

As an aircrew member, I travel quite a bit and have been to many bases CONUS and OCONUS. The uniforms infractions in the Air Force are minor (e.g. wearing a jacket open, as opposed to zippered; rolling flight suits sleeves outward, as opposed to inwards; wearing sunglasses on head or around neck, etc.) when compared to the ones I've seen in CAP (e.g. wearing green flight suit jacket with blues; wearing metal rank on CAP uniforms, wearing insignias on the wrong place or more than the maximum allowed, combining uniform items, etc.).

Certainly, uniform standards in the Civil Air Patrol can be interesting at times, but that has more to do with cost, lack of availability and geographically separated distance from those points where uniform standards are strongly enforced.

While some uniform infractions can be attributed to "cost" and "lack of availability", many of the ones I've seen throughout the years may be attributed to either an attitude of "I don't care" or one of "look at me and all my shinny things".

Finally, as an Air Force Reservist who seems to be equipped to point out uniform infractions, it is your responsbility to point out those infractions to the individual involved in order to correct them -- not to get on a soap box in this environment.

I am very aware of my responsibilities as an Air Force and CAP officer, thank you very much. Unfortunately, not everyone is.

Your comments almost sound as if you're trying to justify why CAP members don't wear their uniforms right. I hope not since you should also be aware of your responsibilities, especially since you were quick to point out mine. Cheers!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...even got to wear the maroon ones.

Oh, man, I'm sorry for you...that's when I came in...we had a few of the blue epaulettes in our squadron supplies.  I should have bought them as collectors' items.

I never understood the cloth insignias with blue background on BDUs; and even less, the grey epaulets on the blue service dress coat. For a long time, I wished our CAP uniforms would look more like Air Force uniforms. After all, we are the official U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

I thought the grey epaulettes were worlds better than the berry boards but still a reminder of the many being kicked for the past actions of the few.

But now I get it. There are just too many members that can't follow the rules and do all sort of crazy things with their uniforms. I just came from a wing conference and was amazed with some of the things I saw coming from ranking and/or experienced individuals. The same thing happens with field/utility uniforms (BDUs, flight suits, etc.). It is no wonder why the Air Force doesn't want us to look more like them.

What were some of the infractions you witnessed?  I rarely, if ever, have seen anything egregious at a Wing/Region Conference, mostly because the ones I've attended had a fairly substantial Air Force presence (one was attended by an AFRES Brigadier General).

I am currently in the Air Force Reserve and have seen my share of Reservists who seem lax with the uniform.

I saw a few in the Air National Guard too.  I remember seeing SNCO's, a few of whom were AGR, who would no way have passed AF H/W tests of the time, let alone CAP.  I also remember seeing plain-green field jackets being worn with BDU's (OK, that may have been authorised, but I don't see the reason for it).

But the things that I see in CAP, which are far worse, make me wonder if we wouldn't be better off without the Air Force-style uniform. And while I do like wearing my Air Force-style uniforms, I agree with Eclipse that it would be better if we had just one of each type of uniform as opposed to two or more.

Again, I wonder what you're seeing, because I'm sure not, at least not as widespread as you indicate.

I have seen one person wearing metal rank on the lightweight jacket...and that was almost ten years ago.

I have seen the blue lightweight jacket worn with the G/W...once.

I have seen, to the best of my memory, the green flight jacket worn with the G/W...twice in almost 20 years.

I'm not excusing those infractions.  I'm just saying I haven't seen them all over the place.

I wouldn't be opposed to Eclipse's "one uniform" idea...as long as it's not the G/W blazer setup.  I am not giving any reasons other than I hate it.  I know a lot of people like the idea of it, but I have never met one person who actually likes the look of it...all the "likes" I have personally found have to do with it being cheap, easy to get and the perception of not having to meet AF standards, C&C's, etc.

Don't kid yourself. The reason why we wear gray shoulder marks isn't so much about standards as it is about the politics at the Air Staff level, and issues from the past where certain senior CAP officers took certain liberities in an Air Force-looking uniform.

Which you will find no official confirmation of, but that's been hashed out here already.

And, those liberties can be taken/abused regardless of the uniform or the colour of the epaulettes.

Finally, as an Air Force Reservist who seems to be equipped to point out uniform infractions, it is your responsbility to point out those infractions to the individual involved in order to correct them -- not to get on a soap box in this environment.

I have politely pointed out, as a CAP member, uniform violations to AIR FORCE personnel (what are they going to do, kick me out for it?).  The vast majority of them fell under the "Whoops, I wasn't thinking, thanks" category; i.e., pocket flap unbuttoned.  Usually someone of good character will take it in the spirit in which it is meant (I try to phrase it as a "question," as Alex Trebek might say, "Excuse me, but is that regulation?").