First Sergeant Diamond...?

[Luis R. Ramos]

I remembered reading rather skimming the topic of "First Sergeant Diamond" dated 2008 when having a conversation with my unit's CDC. He said the diamond was still authorized. So I did a search of the current 52-16 published December 2012.

No mention of diamonds, unless my searcher did not work.

What, exactly, is the status of the diamond? Are they still authorized?

Before someone posts "what is your concern whether a diamond is allowed?" as has happened other times I have posted a question regarding my positions at the squadron.

I am Personnel Officer, and CAP pubs state "it is the Personnel Officer the person that implements wear of the uniform."

Flyer

[Sapper168]

Just a couple from the search option.....


http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15881.msg288047#msg288047

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14079.msg254423#msg254423

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10961.msg200827#msg200827

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13180.msg241124#msg241124

[EMT-83]

I remembered reading rather skimming the topic of "First Sergeant Diamond" dated 2008 when having a conversation with my unit's CDC. He said the diamond was still authorized. So I did a search of the current 52-16 published December 2012.

No mention of diamonds, unless my searcher did not work.

What, exactly, is the status of the diamond? Are they still authorized?

Before someone posts "what is your concern whether a diamond is allowed?" as has happened other times I have posted a question regarding my positions at the squadron.

I am Personnel Officer, and CAP pubs state "it is the Personnel Officer the person that implements wear of the uniform."

Flyer

Flyer, I never would have questioned why you asked the original question if not for your bold-text comment. Perhaps I can offer some clarity.

Responsibility for proper uniform wear rest squarely on the shoulders of the commander. Reference CAPR 20-1, page 21. That responsibility is sometimes delegated to the deputy commander(s).

The personnel officer's involvement in regards to uniforms is limited to "associated administrative procedures" according to CAPR 20-1, page 38.

In regards to the First Sergeant Diamond, there are conflicts in various documents. If your commanders have determined it will be worn, so be it. Unless responsibility for uniform wear has specifically been delegated to you, let it go.

A much better guide for performing the duties of the personnel officer would be CAPP 200.

[arajca]

1. The first sergeant diamond is not authorized. It was removed from the latest version of CAPR 52-16. There is no conflict in the regs - it's not there.
2. It is not in CAPM 39-1 or any of the ICLs related to it. If National meant to authorize it, they would have added it somewhere along the line. They've had enough opportunities.
3. It's really not a big enough issue to get into a urination contest over.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yet I see C/MSgt - C/CMSgt grades with the diamond.

[a2capt]

..and our official enabl, er, um, supplier .. sells it. Go figure.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The argument always comes down to
"Why do you need the diamond?"
"So my cadets know who the first sergeant is"
"They should already know who the first sergeant is, without seeing a diamond"
"Well new people won't know who I am"
"New people will have no clue what the diamond is"
"..."

[Garibaldi]

How will people know I'm the boss?

Introduce yourself as such.

[Eclipse]

How will people know I'm the boss?

Introduce yourself as such.

Unfortunately, in CAP that sometimes includes 1/2 the room.

[Luis R. Ramos]

EMT 83-

I guess there is room for arguing.

Here is what I base my comments. From CAPP 200, section d on page 10:

One particularly important area of concern is the proper
wear of the CAP uniform. Although unit commanders are
ultimately responsible for ensuring that all members of their
unit observe the standards of dress and appearance,
personnel officers should be the most knowledgeable
members of the squadron regarding CAP uniform matters. If
a discrepancy is noted, the personnel officer should point it
out to the member concerned. If members repeatedly violate
the regulation or do not correct...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

As Personnel Officer, you certainly have input, at least locally, however yo have no authority to implement or interpret policy, only make recommendations.

To the topic at hand, at least in the current state of the regulations, the diamond is no longer authorized, why isn't relevant.  However you could be
"right" in this, but still ultimately "wrong" if you push too hard or exceed your authority.

Since the CDC is allowing the wear, presumably with the acquiescence of the Commander, and assuming you've made a professional recommendation to the CC, it's pretty much a closed discussion.  And, not saying it has been, but certainly not one that should be had in front of the cadets.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ground-

Thank you very much for all those links.

I did a search before I posted, but I only got a 2008 thread. I guess I must always resort to several searches using different keywords.

Thank you all for your comments.

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

No, it has not been implemented yet. It was a discussion we were having before he became CDC.

I beg to differ about...

...no authority to implement... or interpret policy...

From CAPP 200, page 10:

...One particularly important area of concern is the proper
wear of the CAP uniform. Although unit commanders are
ultimately responsible for ensuring that all members of their
unit observe the standards of dress and appearance,
personnel officers should be the most knowledgeable
members of the squadron regarding CAP uniform matters. If
a discrepancy is noted, the personnel officer should point it
out to the member concerned. If members repeatedly violate
the regulation or do not correct...

Or are you going to say now this is in direct conflict with CAP regulations?

Flyer

[Eclipse]

For starters, that's a pamphlet, not a regulation, and even if that were not the case, the very verbiage you cite reserves
the authority to the commander.

[Luis R. Ramos]

...yet it still states the Personnel Officer implements and recommends uniform policy...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

...yet it still states the Personnel Officer implements and recommends uniform policy...

Correct, policy approved by the commander, just as with any staff officer.  You have no authority to interpret without his approval.

[Luis R. Ramos]

...or as in this case, interpret and recommend if it is not approved yet...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Yes, no issue there, but the interpretation is upstream, not to the membership, and once the CC makes the decision, that's the
end of it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yep, just like the discussion our squadron had on wear of the NRA badge.

When we discussed it, I said "it is not authorized." The CC said "I still would like our members to wear it, what can we do?" I said "you can authorize wear of the NRA badge locally at our events and meetings as long as cadets do not wear it to events out of our unit." And that is what we do.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Yep, just like the discussion our squadron had on wear of the NRA badge.

When we discussed it, I said "it is not authorized." The CC said "I still would like our members to wear it, what can we do?" I said "you can authorize wear of the NRA badge locally at our events and meetings as long as cadets do not wear it to events out of our unit." And that is what we do.

Except that he can't, unless you can cite otherwise.

Local CC's are not allowed to simply "make things up", or re-craft the regs as they wish them to be on their own whim.  In this case, either the OI or the supplement would need higher HQ approval, which they are not likely to get.