Chain hanging on BDUs?

[Hawk200]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

[cap235629]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

[JoeTomasone]

wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

You might want to brush up on 39-1. Black shoes are kosher with the BBDU.

4 Footwear Any type plain black shoe or boot may be worn.

I'll see your quote and raise you one.   

1-6. Dress and Appearance.  All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their
appearance at all times reflects  credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force. See Table 2-5 for
further clarification.  When uniforms are worn, they must be clean, neat and correct in design and
specification, properly fitted, and in good condition.  Uniforms will be kept zippered, snapped, or
buttoned and shoes will be shined and in good repair.  Metallic insignia, badges and other devices,
including the blue service uniform buttons, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition.

SHOES; not TENNIS SHOES.

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

The table also says when "participating  in or conducting the cadet program".    I could argue that a Squadron meeting at a Cadet or Composite squadron qualifies.

[davidsinn]

wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

You might want to brush up on 39-1. Black shoes are kosher with the BBDU.

4 Footwear Any type plain black shoe or boot may be worn.

I'll see your quote and raise you one.   

1-6. Dress and Appearance.  All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their
appearance at all times reflects  credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force. See Table 2-5 for
further clarification.  When uniforms are worn, they must be clean, neat and correct in design and
specification, properly fitted, and in good condition.  Uniforms will be kept zippered, snapped, or
buttoned and shoes will be shined and in good repair.  Metallic insignia, badges and other devices,
including the blue service uniform buttons, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition.

SHOES; not TENNIS SHOES.

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

I think what needs to be remembered is that the BBDU is designed for those that can't/won't wear the AF uniforms. Some people medically can't wear a boot but needs a uniform they can get dirty in.

[RiverAux]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

No, the table is just as much of the regulation as anything else. Heck, almost every single detail about how individual uniforms are worn are in the various tables.  Are you saying that doesn't matter?  Where in the "verbiage" of the regulation do you see that uniforms are only needed when flying or when working with cadets.  That isn't in the current 39-1. 

[Eclipse]

How do you shine tennis shoes?

How do you shine textured tac boots?

(Actually I know cadets who could put a mirror on either)

[Larry Mangum]

I wore LOX boots in the USAF and we took sucker bets off new airman who swore they could put a mirror shine on them. They failed every time.

[JoeTomasone]

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

Shoes != Boots.

[davidsinn]

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

Shoes != Boots.

So we don't shine boots now?

[cap235629]

I shine my black leather tennis shoes the same way I shine my black leather boots and black leather dress shoes, with shoe polish, a rag and a cotton diaper.

I wore black leather tennis shoes as a duty shoe as a cop and they were always shined.

So how is a tennis "shoe" not a "shoe" ?

[JoeTomasone]

So we don't shine boots now?

The regulation quote in question stated that SHOES must be shined.   I was pointing out that it would be tough to shine your average Nike or Reebok, which is what reasonably comes to mind when someone (with distaste) states that someone is wearing tennis shoes.   You were discussing a boot, which clearly is not a shoe (much less a tennis shoe).   

Only if you intend to be argumentative could you conclude that I meant that we do not shine boots.

[davidsinn]

So we don't shine boots now?

The regulation quote in question stated that SHOES must be shined.   I was pointing out that it would be tough to shine your average Nike or Reebok, which is what reasonably comes to mind when someone (with distaste) states that someone is wearing tennis shoes.   You were discussing a boot, which clearly is not a shoe (much less a tennis shoe).   

Only if you intend to be argumentative could you conclude that I meant that we do not shine boots.

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

[JoeTomasone]

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Common sense would interpret that "shoes", as the term is used in 39-1, refers to dress shoes, not tennis shoes.    As you'll recall, the discussion centered around whether or not tennis shoes should be worn with the BBDUs. 

[davidsinn]

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Common sense would interpret that "shoes", as the term is used in 39-1, refers to dress shoes, not tennis shoes.    As you'll recall, the discussion centered around whether or not tennis shoes should be worn with the BBDUs.

I agree it only refers to dress shoes. So there is no issue here then?

[BGNightfall]

That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Unfortunately the reg also does not allow sueded/rough out boots to be worn with the CAP uniform, otherwise I would certainly spring for the sueded NWU boot option for CAP wear, at least around the squadron... they're actually quite comfortable.

To the actual topic of the thread, I've always found the whistle chain to be quite garish for BDU wear.  Even as a cadet first sergeant I never went that route. 

[Major Carrales]

The term "commonsense" insinuates a common point of reference (such as similar cultural significance, local custom or shared experience).  Thus, what is commonsense to the New Englander and the Texas are not the same.  What a Californian sees as commonsense and what a Nebraskan see as commonsense are not necessarily the same.  This is true because, while we have some commonality as Americans, we also have our regional dissimilarity.

By definition of diversity of membership in CAP  (being of different ages, experience, generations and locality) the "common" in "commonsense" might not be cut of the same cloth.

For example, to me a tee shirt is an item of "underwear," while for some a new tee shirt is worn as "Sunday Best" to Church.  To me a CAP Officer wears a service cap and looks sharp with a smart appearance, to others it looks goofy and would never be worn.

[davidsinn]

That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Unfortunately the reg also does not allow sueded/rough out boots to be worn with the CAP uniform, otherwise I would certainly spring for the sueded NWU boot option for CAP wear, at least around the squadron... they're actually quite comfortable.

It is allowed with the BBDU because all it states is a plain black boot. The BDU states something to the effect of smooth grain leather or man-made material.

[Thrashed]

I've live near Hawk and have gone there for training. They wear the chain and whistle. They also wear crushed hats, white shoelaces, etc. They do thier own thing there and members bring back the uniform violations to the squadron level. I'm not sure why Hawk is allowed to ignore the uniform regs?

[Thrashed]

The BBDU is a field uniform.  Who would wear shined dress shoes in the field?  If someone showed up for a SAR in shined military low quarters, I would not let them in the woods. Black tennis shoes are fine.  It is not a USAF style uniform.  The regulation about shining shoes refers only to the type of shoes that can be shined.  If you look under the BDU in the reg, it says combat boots.  If you look under BBDU, is says any black shoe. The USAF style uniform section talks about shining shoes, but the CAP distinctive section does not. Use common sense.

[tarheel gumby]

Looking sloppy is just bad. I have seen members with long hair and "black shoes" with their BBDU's that are neat well groomed and present a professional appearance. There is no reason to look like you slept in your uniform, that is just lazy and bad for the Squadron. As to not wearing a uniform to a meeting, not an issue if it is only occasional, but if it is routine then that would be a problem. I think that the problem is when people get the idea that an item is authorized for and activity they can go back to their home unit and wear it. The fault lies with the Activity Commander for not making sure that the regs are explained to participants of the activity.