Chain hanging on BDUs?

[niferous]

So last night at our meeting we had a new senior member that is moving from Michigan show up in his uniform.  Normally that wouldn't be a big deal or worth mentioning at all.  However I noticed that this guy (he's a major by the way) was wearing that red ranger badge I've heard about on here and also he had this chain that went from the button slit on the top of his BDU buttons and down to under his pocket flap. 

What the heck is that thing for?  Me and all the other senior member couldn't figure it out.  His hair was too long to be in regs.  I don't normally worry about hair all that much but it seems that this guy has just made changes to the BDU uniform without asking anyone.  I know that's not uncommon in CAP (unfortunatley) but I've never heard of this chain thing before. 

Ideas?

[MSgt Van]

He's out of uniform. Period.

[exFlight Officer]

Did anyone respectfully consult (not sure if consult is the right word to use) him about his uniform?

The chain could be attached to a pocket watch, maybe ?? You mentioned that the chain went down under the pocket flap ... just an idea. I own a pocket watch myself.

Respectfully,

[PHall]

I'll bet cash money there's a whistle at the end of that chain inside the pocket.

[CAP Producer]

So last night at our meeting we had a new senior member that is moving from Michigan show up in his uniform.  Normally that wouldn't be a big deal or worth mentioning at all.  However I noticed that this guy (he's a major by the way) was wearing that red ranger badge I've heard about on here and also he had this chain that went from the button slit on the top of his BDU buttons and down to under his pocket flap. 

What the heck is that thing for?  Me and all the other senior member couldn't figure it out.  His hair was too long to be in regs.  I don't normally worry about hair all that much but it seems that this guy has just made changes to the BDU uniform without asking anyone.  I know that's not uncommon in CAP (unfortunatley) but I've never heard of this chain thing before. 

Ideas?

He's a Major and should know better. Sounds like your CC needs to "counsel" this guy on the proper wear of the uniform.

[RiverAux]

A lot of folks will attach a whistle that way, but every one I've seen has been on a cord.  Never seen a whistle on a chain.

[nesagsar]

I dont remember mention of a whistle in 39-1.

[SarDragon]

A lot of folks will attach a whistle that way, but every one I've seen has been on a cord.  Never seen a whistle on a chain.

Actually, the "Fabled First Sergeant's Whistle" comes with a chain.

[Persona non grata]

Because it makes him feel special so dont hurt his feelings when you tell himto take it off  .........The only time I wore a whistle is when it got assinged a traffic detail.  After that detail I removed it.      I am all for the whistle for safety purposes so carry it in your pocket and call it a day.   

[Slim]

Not exactly sure who this might be (I do have an idea though).

I will say that neither the Hawk ranger tab, or the whistle/chain are kosher in MIWG.  In fact, our current wing king has been known to tell people to remove them.   

Suggest that the squadron commander talk to him about it.

[niferous]

I seriously doubt the commander will say something to him about it. While he is a good guy uniforms just aren't really "his thing". He's shall we say... Very casual.

[JoeTomasone]

<sarcasm>

I seriously doubt the commander will say something to him about it. While he is a good guy uniforms regulations just aren't really "his thing". He's shall we say... Very casual.

</sarcasm>


Insert thought-provoking comment about slippery slopes and whatnot here.

[jeders]

Well since you're in TXWG, if he goes to the wing conference, just point him out and a few of us will be glad to "counsel" him on following the regs.

[BillB]

If he's wearing the Ranger patch the whistle is a Hawk thing. A senior member here also wears a whictle on his BDUs because he attended Hawk.

[RiverAux]

While out on a ground team mission and while doing a search line (on which you're supposed to be using your whistle regularly), I'd much rather have it attached to my uniform pocket than worn around my neck.  That being said, wearing a whistle to a meeting is just dumb.

[a2capt]

Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
Don't grumble, give a whistle,
And this'll help things turn out for the best, and...

[Major Lord]

Maybe its his "anti-rape" whistle......or a defibrillator.....or a hearing aid/cochlear implant. You can never tell with Senior Members....

Major Lord

[MSG Mac]

Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
Don't grumble, give a whistle,
And this'll help things turn out for the best, and...

Wasn't Brian being crucified while he was singing that?

[a2capt]

Just like the subject of the first post..

[Bobble]

Just for clarity:

39-1
CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM MANUAL
1-6. Dress and Appearance.

a. Appearance of Men in Uniform. Articles such as wallets, pencils, pens, watch chains, fobs,
pins, jewelry, handkerchiefs, combs, cigars, cigarettes, pipes, and sunglass cases will not be exposed on the uniform. The wear of ...


fob

NOUN:

1. A small pocket at the front waistline of a man's trousers or in the front of a vest, used especially to hold a watch.

2. A short chain or ribbon attached to a pocket watch and worn hanging in front of the vest or waist.
An ornament or seal attached to such a chain or ribbon.


I have found that (at least where I am) it is common practice at local CAP ES training events to wear a lanyard as the OP mentioned, with whistle attached.  I've seen red, green, black and white lanyards. Of course, it then falls to the Squadron Commander to inform the cadets upon their return to the Squadron that it is in fact not permitted for wear.

I have even had a cadet tell me that it certainly was permitted as part of his BDU since it was "awarded" to him upon the successful completion of his ES training.  I sure wish I could have attended that particular "Award" ceremony.

[davidsinn]

Just for clarity:

39-1
CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM MANUAL
1-6. Dress and Appearance.

a. Appearance of Men in Uniform. Articles such as wallets, pencils, pens, watch chains, fobs,
pins, jewelry, handkerchiefs, combs, cigars, cigarettes, pipes, and sunglass cases will not be exposed on the uniform. The wear of ...


fob

NOUN:

1. A small pocket at the front waistline of a man's trousers or in the front of a vest, used especially to hold a watch.

2. A short chain or ribbon attached to a pocket watch and worn hanging in front of the vest or waist.
An ornament or seal attached to such a chain or ribbon.


I have found that (at least where I am) it is common practice at local CAP ES training events to wear a lanyard as the OP mentioned, with whistle attached.  I've seen red, green, black and white lanyards. Of course, it then falls to the Squadron Commander to inform the cadets upon their return to the Squadron that it is in fact not permitted for wear.

I have even had a cadet tell me that it certainly was permitted as part of his BDU since it was "awarded" to him upon the successful completion of his ES training.  I sure wish I could have attended that particular "Award" ceremony.

I'd also like to add this definition of fob:

[Hawk200]

I have even had a cadet tell me that it certainly was permitted as part of his BDU since it was "awarded" to him upon the successful completion of his ES training.  I sure wish I could have attended that particular "Award" ceremony.

So would I. I've seen a few of these doozies, encampment staff T-shirts being another one I find annoying. Once you leave the encampment, there is no need for you to wear an "encampment staff" T-shirt.

[Hawk200]

I'd also like to add this definition of fob:

Saw a guy that wanted to hang one from his belt while wearing blues. He insisted that was the only way he could carry it. It was amusing watching his commander trying to tell him in a polite manner that he was being an idiot.

[wacapgh]

I have even had a cadet tell me that it certainly was permitted as part of his BDU since it was "awarded" to him upon the successful completion of his ES training.  I sure wish I could have attended that particular "Award" ceremony.

So would I. I've seen a few of these doozies, encampment staff T-shirts being another one I find annoying. Once you leave the encampment, there is no need for you to wear an "encampment staff" T-shirt.

And hats!

[Robert Hartigan]

I have always thought less is more on the BDU's. I loved the Aircrew Patch sans stripes and tapes when I was on active duty. I think all the doo-dads on the CAP BDU's is a little garish. You are not going to be able to participate in a mission just by sewing a patch on a shirt so all the patches serve no operational purpose. Maybe all those extra patches should have bar codes or QR codes so qualification can be verified.

Oh and we can go down a 'rabbit hole' if we talk again about the right side flag patch.

[Major Carrales]

When on ES ground team we often use a whistle and lanyard to give the necessary whistle signals when on search line.  It falls under the guise of  ES equipment including pistol belt, canteen and other such. 

[nesagsar]

The whistle is gear but not the patch. And gear should only be there during training or actual missions.

[Major Carrales]

The whistle is gear but not the patch. And gear should only be there during training or actual missions.

Agreed, however, some subscribers to "uniform nazism" needs to be aware of this.

[SarDragon]

I'd also like to add this definition of fob:

[pic redacted]

Saw a guy that wanted to hang one from his belt while wearing blues. He insisted that was the only way he could carry it. It was amusing watching his commander trying to tell him in a polite manner that he was being an idiot.

Due to the nature of my "stable", I have one similar to the one pictured, for my 'Burb, on the ring with the rest of my keys, and a second one, which is "the" key, for the Prius. The keys go in my RF pocket, and the Prius doohickey and my change go in my LF pocket. "Piece of pie."

This guy is, plain and simple, a twit.

[SarDragon]

When you get in trouble and you don't know right from wrong,
give a little whistle!
Give a little whistle!
When you meet temptation and the urge is very strong,
give a little whistle!
Give a little whistle!
Not just a little squeak,
pucker up and blow.
And if your whistle's weak, yell "Jiminy Cricket!"

Take the straight and narrow path
and if you start to slide,
give a little whistle!
Give a little whistle!
And always let your conscience be your guide

[niferous]

Well my wife is the DCC and also a major and plans on saying something should he decide to wear it again. 

Unfortunately it seems that only the seniors who actually work with the cadets in our squadron seem to really make an effort when it comes to uniforms and their propper wear.  In fact they (we) are the only ones that wear BDUs/or the BBDUs in a squared away nature.  All the others have long hair, facial hair, don't show up in uniform at all, or wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes. 

[davidsinn]

Well my wife is the DCC and also a major and plans on saying something should he decide to wear it again. 

Unfortunately it seems that only the seniors who actually work with the cadets in our squadron seem to really make an effort when it comes to uniforms and their propper wear.  In fact they (we) are the only ones that wear BDUs/or the BBDUs in a squared away nature.  All the others have long hair, facial hair, don't show up in uniform at all, or wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

You might want to brush up on 39-1. Black shoes are kosher with the BBDU.

Table 4-7. Men's and Women's CAP Field Uniform
Item Wear Instructions/Materials
1 CAP Field
Uniform shirt
Dark blue, BDU-style, cotton; single-breasted with four bellow pockets with
flaps; straight-cut bottom, sleeve tabs, and take-up tabs on the side. Long
sleeves may be rolled up; if rolled up, will touch or come within 1 inch of
forearms when arm is bent at a 90-degree angle; may be removed in the
immediate work area. When removed, T-shirt will be worn. A summer
weight shirt is also authorized, but shirt and trousers must match.
2 Trousers Dark blue, cotton, with button front closure, and six pockets. Trousers may be
bloused over combat boots. If not bloused, drawstring at the bottom of trouser
leg should be removed. Summer weight trousers are also authorized, but shirt
and trousers must match.
3 Belt Any plain dark blue or black woven cotton web belt may be worn.
4 Footwear Any type plain black shoe or boot may be worn.
5 Socks Plain black socks, white socks may be worn with boots.
6 Headgear Headgear is not required, but the CAP baseball cap and dark blue BDU cap
may be worn. If the dark blue field jacket is worn, the CAP baseball cap or
dark blue BDU cap must be worn.
7 T-Shirt Plain white t-shirt must be worn.
8 Outergarments Since the field uniform is uniquely CAP and is not a USAF clothing item, any
type cold weather outergarment may be worn. A dark blue field jacket is
available and authorized for wear. If worn, the same accouterments worn on
the field uniform shirt will be worn. An orange safety vest is authorized in
wooded areas for safety reasons.

[cap235629]

In fact they (we) are the only ones that wear BDUs/or the BBDUs in a squared away nature.  All the others have long hair, facial hair, don't show up in uniform at all, or wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

And if they have facial hair, long hair and black tennis shoes on when wearing the BBDU and you say something, YOU would be the one who is "unsat"

All of the above are allowed by regulation

[Patterson]

Unfortunately it seems that only the seniors who actually work with the cadets in our squadron seem to really make an effort when it comes to uniforms and their proper wear.  In fact they (we) are the only ones that wear BDUs/or the BBDUs in a squared away nature.  All the others have long hair, facial hair, don't show up in uniform at all, or wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes. 

I hate that!!  If you come to a meeting please throw on a uniform of some kind.  I also will not tolerate those Seniors walking into my meeting without a CAP prescribed uniform and thinking the excuses of "had to work late", "Not staying all evening" or "just stopping in to do _____" will be ok with me.  If a Cadet can take the time and put a uniform on, we all should be able to do the same!

[cap235629]

Unfortunately it seems that only the seniors who actually work with the cadets in our squadron seem to really make an effort when it comes to uniforms and their proper wear.  In fact they (we) are the only ones that wear BDUs/or the BBDUs in a squared away nature.  All the others have long hair, facial hair, don't show up in uniform at all, or wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes. 

I hate that!!  If you come to a meeting please throw on a uniform of some kind.  I also will not tolerate those Seniors walking into my meeting without a CAP prescribed uniform and thinking the excuses of "had to work late", "Not staying all evening" or "just stopping in to do _____" will be ok with me.  If a Cadet can take the time and put a uniform on, we all should be able to do the same!

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

As far as your "If a Cadet can take the time" argument goes, how many cadets work 10-12 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week, have kids to take care of, school functions to go to etc. and STILL find time to come to a CAP meeting on the way home? If I have time to prepare a uniform properly, I wear one. If on a meeting day I can either make the meeting wearing civvies or go home to get a uniform and be late or just get home and stay there, I choose to go to the meeting.  DRUM ME OUT OF CAP NOW, I AM NOT WORTHY OF YOUR GREAT ORGANIZATION.

You people need to get real.

If your greatest mission assets fall into the above description but are ALWAYS there when a mission comes down, how is this attitude of yours contributing to the success of CAP?

The more I run into Armchair Generals, the more angry I get.......

[EMT-83]

If a Cadet can take the time and put a uniform on, we all should be able to do the same!

Maybe. In the real world, stuff happens that's beyond our control.

It would be nothing less than stupid to jump all over someone who shows up out of uniform due to a last minute problem at work. It's even happened to me once or twice.

Make a habit of not wearing a uniform, or not wearing it properly, that's a different story.

[Patterson]

As far as your "If a Cadet can take the time" argument goes, how many cadets work 10-12 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week, have kids to take care of, school functions to go to etc. and STILL find time to come to a CAP meeting on the way home? If I have time to prepare a uniform properly, I wear one. If on a meeting day I can either make the meeting wearing civvies or go home to get a uniform and be late or just get home and stay there, I choose to go to the meeting.  DRUM ME OUT OF CAP NOW, I AM NOT WORTHY OF YOUR GREAT ORGANIZATION.

You people need to get real.

Maybe keep your uniform in the Car, so you do not have to go home to get it.  Keep it at the unit and change into it when you arrive.  It takes all of five to seven minutes to change into the Polo and gray pants uniform.

I bet you spend more time than that just BS'ing at the coffee maker before you actually begin anything at the CAP meeting.

You "should get real"!!

[tsrup]

How hard is it to throw your uniform in the back of the the car, and just change when you get to the meeting? especially with the polo option?

At the same time, I'm not going to jump on someone for not being in uniform at the squadron.  Life happens, it's cool.  But habitually is a different story.  When it happens over and over, it calls into question a members ability to plan ahead...  It's not like the meeting time is given out at the last minute.

Today for instance.  I showed up to my meeting out of uniform.  Why?  Because one of the classes I have now conflicts, so I wasn't planning on being there.  However, class let out early, so I decided to head over to the squadron.  If I went home to shave and change I would have missed it.  No big deal, I was wearing a button up shirt anyways. 


This is one of those individual circumstances, YMMV, kind of deals.

There are bigger things to worry about.


edit:

And you can bet your butt if a cadet came to a meeting out of uniform and had a good reason, that I would allow it, as long as it was a one time thing. 

And there is a huge difference between not wearing a uniform because of extenuating circumstances, and wearing a uniform incorrectly.  If a member doesn't have time to shave (for instance) I'd rather they didn't wear a uniform (AF style of course), than wear it against regs.   

[cap235629]

There are bigger things to worry about.

My point exactly.

[niferous]

I understand that the things I described are ok, I'd have to take a picture to fully explain.  The BBDU uniform even with longer hair, and the black tennis shoes can still be worn in a neat orderly way.  I should have explained further and said how we have some members that choose to wear it in a way that makes them look like they literally just threw everything together and that a very sloppy appearance does not bother them at all.  White t-shirt turning a little yellow.  Black tennis shoes all dirty and falling apart.  Hair unkept and sprouting out everywhere. 

You get the picture. 

[Hawk200]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

[cap235629]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

[JoeTomasone]

wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

You might want to brush up on 39-1. Black shoes are kosher with the BBDU.

4 Footwear Any type plain black shoe or boot may be worn.

I'll see your quote and raise you one.   

1-6. Dress and Appearance.  All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their
appearance at all times reflects  credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force. See Table 2-5 for
further clarification.  When uniforms are worn, they must be clean, neat and correct in design and
specification, properly fitted, and in good condition.  Uniforms will be kept zippered, snapped, or
buttoned and shoes will be shined and in good repair.  Metallic insignia, badges and other devices,
including the blue service uniform buttons, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition.

SHOES; not TENNIS SHOES.

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

The table also says when "participating  in or conducting the cadet program".    I could argue that a Squadron meeting at a Cadet or Composite squadron qualifies.

[davidsinn]

wear the BBDUs with black tennis shoes.

You might want to brush up on 39-1. Black shoes are kosher with the BBDU.

4 Footwear Any type plain black shoe or boot may be worn.

I'll see your quote and raise you one.   

1-6. Dress and Appearance.  All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their
appearance at all times reflects  credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force. See Table 2-5 for
further clarification.  When uniforms are worn, they must be clean, neat and correct in design and
specification, properly fitted, and in good condition.  Uniforms will be kept zippered, snapped, or
buttoned and shoes will be shined and in good repair.  Metallic insignia, badges and other devices,
including the blue service uniform buttons, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition.

SHOES; not TENNIS SHOES.

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

I think what needs to be remembered is that the BBDU is designed for those that can't/won't wear the AF uniforms. Some people medically can't wear a boot but needs a uniform they can get dirty in.

[RiverAux]

It is easily argued that the regs state the only time CAP requires that a uniform of any type be worn is when flying in CAP aircraft or working directly with cadets.  Just being in their presence doesn't constitute working directly.

Not anymore. I also remember that it used to say that. Now, one of the statements in 39-1, Table 1-1 is "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." If you're doing something in an organized setting with CAP, wear a uniform. That means meetings. Meetings are "normal duties", and "local functions." Nothing difficult about it.

the table is an illustration, the verbiage of the regulation is the rule.

See how this can go?

No, the table is just as much of the regulation as anything else. Heck, almost every single detail about how individual uniforms are worn are in the various tables.  Are you saying that doesn't matter?  Where in the "verbiage" of the regulation do you see that uniforms are only needed when flying or when working with cadets.  That isn't in the current 39-1. 

[Eclipse]

How do you shine tennis shoes?

How do you shine textured tac boots?

(Actually I know cadets who could put a mirror on either)

[Larry Mangum]

I wore LOX boots in the USAF and we took sucker bets off new airman who swore they could put a mirror shine on them. They failed every time.

[JoeTomasone]

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

Shoes != Boots.

[davidsinn]

How do you shine tennis shoes?   

You don't. You chalk it up to an inconsistency in the manual. How do you shine this boot for example?
http://img.wolverineworldwide.com/is/image/bulk/cat1/2009/10/13/BTS-W1421-07.tif?op_usm=0.5,1&wid=363&hei=336&qlt=95&fmt=jpeg

Shoes != Boots.

So we don't shine boots now?

[cap235629]

I shine my black leather tennis shoes the same way I shine my black leather boots and black leather dress shoes, with shoe polish, a rag and a cotton diaper.

I wore black leather tennis shoes as a duty shoe as a cop and they were always shined.

So how is a tennis "shoe" not a "shoe" ?

[JoeTomasone]

So we don't shine boots now?

The regulation quote in question stated that SHOES must be shined.   I was pointing out that it would be tough to shine your average Nike or Reebok, which is what reasonably comes to mind when someone (with distaste) states that someone is wearing tennis shoes.   You were discussing a boot, which clearly is not a shoe (much less a tennis shoe).   

Only if you intend to be argumentative could you conclude that I meant that we do not shine boots.

[davidsinn]

So we don't shine boots now?

The regulation quote in question stated that SHOES must be shined.   I was pointing out that it would be tough to shine your average Nike or Reebok, which is what reasonably comes to mind when someone (with distaste) states that someone is wearing tennis shoes.   You were discussing a boot, which clearly is not a shoe (much less a tennis shoe).   

Only if you intend to be argumentative could you conclude that I meant that we do not shine boots.

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

[JoeTomasone]

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Common sense would interpret that "shoes", as the term is used in 39-1, refers to dress shoes, not tennis shoes.    As you'll recall, the discussion centered around whether or not tennis shoes should be worn with the BBDUs. 

[davidsinn]

That's the same line used to justify mirror shined boots. If you use an absolute literal interpretation you only shine shoes and not boots. You must use some common sense with that horrible piece of documentation called 39-1. That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Common sense would interpret that "shoes", as the term is used in 39-1, refers to dress shoes, not tennis shoes.    As you'll recall, the discussion centered around whether or not tennis shoes should be worn with the BBDUs.

I agree it only refers to dress shoes. So there is no issue here then?

[BGNightfall]

That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Unfortunately the reg also does not allow sueded/rough out boots to be worn with the CAP uniform, otherwise I would certainly spring for the sueded NWU boot option for CAP wear, at least around the squadron... they're actually quite comfortable.

To the actual topic of the thread, I've always found the whistle chain to be quite garish for BDU wear.  Even as a cadet first sergeant I never went that route. 

[Major Carrales]

The term "commonsense" insinuates a common point of reference (such as similar cultural significance, local custom or shared experience).  Thus, what is commonsense to the New Englander and the Texas are not the same.  What a Californian sees as commonsense and what a Nebraskan see as commonsense are not necessarily the same.  This is true because, while we have some commonality as Americans, we also have our regional dissimilarity.

By definition of diversity of membership in CAP  (being of different ages, experience, generations and locality) the "common" in "commonsense" might not be cut of the same cloth.

For example, to me a tee shirt is an item of "underwear," while for some a new tee shirt is worn as "Sunday Best" to Church.  To me a CAP Officer wears a service cap and looks sharp with a smart appearance, to others it looks goofy and would never be worn.

[davidsinn]

That why I said you wouldn't shine tennis shoes just like you wouldn't try and shine the USN NWU boot if you wore that with the BBDU.

Unfortunately the reg also does not allow sueded/rough out boots to be worn with the CAP uniform, otherwise I would certainly spring for the sueded NWU boot option for CAP wear, at least around the squadron... they're actually quite comfortable.

It is allowed with the BBDU because all it states is a plain black boot. The BDU states something to the effect of smooth grain leather or man-made material.

[Thrashed]

I've live near Hawk and have gone there for training. They wear the chain and whistle. They also wear crushed hats, white shoelaces, etc. They do thier own thing there and members bring back the uniform violations to the squadron level. I'm not sure why Hawk is allowed to ignore the uniform regs?

[Thrashed]

The BBDU is a field uniform.  Who would wear shined dress shoes in the field?  If someone showed up for a SAR in shined military low quarters, I would not let them in the woods. Black tennis shoes are fine.  It is not a USAF style uniform.  The regulation about shining shoes refers only to the type of shoes that can be shined.  If you look under the BDU in the reg, it says combat boots.  If you look under BBDU, is says any black shoe. The USAF style uniform section talks about shining shoes, but the CAP distinctive section does not. Use common sense.

[tarheel gumby]

Looking sloppy is just bad. I have seen members with long hair and "black shoes" with their BBDU's that are neat well groomed and present a professional appearance. There is no reason to look like you slept in your uniform, that is just lazy and bad for the Squadron. As to not wearing a uniform to a meeting, not an issue if it is only occasional, but if it is routine then that would be a problem. I think that the problem is when people get the idea that an item is authorized for and activity they can go back to their home unit and wear it. The fault lies with the Activity Commander for not making sure that the regs are explained to participants of the activity.

[JoeTomasone]

The BBDU is a field uniform.  Who would wear shined dress shoes in the field?  If someone showed up for a SAR in shined military low quarters, I would not let them in the woods. Black tennis shoes are fine.  It is not a USAF style uniform.  The regulation about shining shoes refers only to the type of shoes that can be shined.  If you look under the BDU in the reg, it says combat boots.  If you look under BBDU, is says any black shoe. The USAF style uniform section talks about shining shoes, but the CAP distinctive section does not. Use common sense.

For that matter, you can wear combat boots with AF blues.   Where's the common sense in that?

[a2capt]

The pants hemmed at the right spot/angle, and polished boots, you can hardly see it.

When the sides of ones corframs blow out, after only a couple years of meetings that mostly BDUs anyway, in other words, about 50 times if you include SLS, and other classes/activities.  Why spend more money? Aside from the different style toe, you can't tell in passing. With the variety of shoe cuts available, it could just be another design...

[Hawk200]

I've live near Hawk and have gone there for training. They wear the chain and whistle. They also wear crushed hats, white shoelaces, etc. They do their own thing there and members bring back the uniform violations to the squadron level. I'm not sure why Hawk is allowed to ignore the uniform regs?

You're not alone. Many of us wonder. The tabs are questionable as to their legality outside of Hawk. Personally, I wouldn't be annoyed with someone in a local unit wearing tabs and the patch. I just don't think it's that bad. Should be clarified though.

What I do find annoying is someone showing up with their tabs, their patch, their scarf, their hat, their pistol belt, their special laces, and their secret words and handshakes. You can take it too far. Tabs and patch says "I went to Hawk, and managed to complete it satisfactorily." Everything else added says "I went to Hawk! Look at me!"

[Hawk200]

The BBDU is a field uniform.  Who would wear shined dress shoes in the field?  If someone showed up for a SAR in shined military low quarters, I would not let them in the woods. Black tennis shoes are fine.  It is not a USAF style uniform.  The regulation about shining shoes refers only to the type of shoes that can be shined.  If you look under the BDU in the reg, it says combat boots.  If you look under BBDU, is says any black shoe. The USAF style uniform section talks about shining shoes, but the CAP distinctive section does not. Use common sense.

For that matter, you can wear combat boots with AF blues.   Where's the common sense in that?

Alternate footwear choice, that's about it. I generally avoid wear of low quarters, they can be painful at times. Combat boots are allowed, but I go with a set of plain black ropers. Comfortable, shine well, and most of the time, people don't even notice that I'm wearing them, unless they take the time to look, and notice that I don't have shoelaces. By pub, they're considered dress boots.

[Hawk200]

The BBDU is a field uniform.  Who would wear shined dress shoes in the field?  If someone showed up for a SAR in shined military low quarters, I would not let them in the woods. Black tennis shoes are fine. 

Agreed. The low quarter may be acceptable per the manual, but going in the field without boots just seems like bad juju waiting to happen.

[keithrclapp]

This "chain" sound to me like a whistle chain. If so it is a traditonal device worn on "class A" police uniforms. Back in the day of foot patrols, before radios, the chain was attached to the button on the right shoulder epulet with a whisle attached to the other and tucked into the shirt pocket. It was used by police to summon assistance from other officers in nearby foot patrols. It has no place on a CAP uniform. I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

[fyrfitrmedic]

This "chain" sound to me like a whistle chain. If so it is a traditonal device worn on "class A" police uniforms. Back in the day of foot patrols, before radios, the chain was attached to the button on the right shoulder epulet with a whisle attached to the other and tucked into the shirt pocket. It was used by police to summon assistance from other officers in nearby foot patrols. It has no place on a CAP uniform. I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

*blink*

[a2capt]

Okay, so.. next time the guy comes in, just go up and pull on the chain.
When he asks why, reply with "I was just yanking your chain..."

[sarmed1]

I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

I second that tony: 
wow!?  with a addendum of WTF

dude; it was already clearly identified early on this guy is wearing some kind of Hawk Mountain "Bling"...... he's  not some kind of LEO poser/wanabe?child molester......

it's a whistle: I dont know a single LEO that carries a whistle (or have for years).  That would be the least likey symptom of badge envy I would ever pull out of my 4th point of contact...

mk

[tsrup]

This "chain" sound to me like a whistle chain. If so it is a traditonal device worn on "class A" police uniforms. Back in the day of foot patrols, before radios, the chain was attached to the button on the right shoulder epulet with a whisle attached to the other and tucked into the shirt pocket. It was used by police to summon assistance from other officers in nearby foot patrols. It has no place on a CAP uniform. I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

O.o

[cap235629]

This "chain" sound to me like a whistle chain. If so it is a traditonal device worn on "class A" police uniforms. Back in the day of foot patrols, before radios, the chain was attached to the button on the right shoulder epulet with a whisle attached to the other and tucked into the shirt pocket. It was used by police to summon assistance from other officers in nearby foot patrols. It has no place on a CAP uniform. I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

TROLL ALERT

[HGjunkie]

This "chain" sound to me like a whistle chain. If so it is a traditonal device worn on "class A" police uniforms. Back in the day of foot patrols, before radios, the chain was attached to the button on the right shoulder epulet with a whisle attached to the other and tucked into the shirt pocket. It was used by police to summon assistance from other officers in nearby foot patrols. It has no place on a CAP uniform. I would suggest that this individual probably has some type of red or blue flashing lights on his car and is probably carrying a gun. In law enforcement circles we call this person "wanna be". This is the  type of individual that is commonly arrrested for impersonating a police officer or worse yet some type of sexual offense. BEWARE!!!!!

Quoi?

[bobscajic]

Atleast in my wing, you're allowed. And a red ranger Tab is advanced ranger, one over R1, one under Instructor. The whistle is a thing you can wear if you have been to HMRS and more then one person is wearing them in my squadron.

[Thrashed]

Not true. PA wing supplements to 39-1 do not agree with you. There is nothing in 39-1 or the PA wing that allow it.

http://www.pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/PAWG-Supp-39-1-Dec11.pdf

[Angus]

I sense the beating of an expired equine coming on. 

[SarDragon]

17 month necro.

Where's that dead horse graphic?

[lordmonar]

17 month necro.

Where's that dead horse graphic?

From a thread that lasted all of 9 days.

Hey new guys.....welcome to CAPTALK....we really appreciate your particpation....but really?

[Angus]

I wonder could this be the same guy we saw a few months back that created the two personas supporting each other and new uniform that pretty much would turn us all into rangers?

[SarDragon]

Likely not. The mods pay pretty close attention to new forum members, and get the smurf accounts weeded out pretty quickly.

[Garibaldi]

17 month necro.

Where's that dead horse graphic?

Right here...



You're welcome.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well with the new CAPM 39-1 supplement, the "ranger" tab thingy is now allowed. The whistle...not so much.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What is it with all these old threads being brought back from Sheol, Gre'Thor, Tartarus, etc.?

[Eclipse]

What is it with all these old threads being brought back from Sheol, Gre'Thor, Tartarus, etc.?

September is a little early this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
every year in September, a large number of new university freshmen acquired access to Usenet for the first time, and took some time to acclimate to the network's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a month or so, these new users would theoretically learn to comport themselves according to its conventions, or simply tire of using the service. September thus heralded the peak influx of disruptive newcomers to the network.

This happens every year around this time - cadets coming back from Summer activities have heard about CT, and they are bored because school hasn't started yet.  They also haven't learned to comport themselves properly online, believing that the "real" internet is like their "social" nonsense and texting.