Cadet Moustache??

[Hawk200]

Hawk,

He didn't say "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team."

He said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance".

That's still sketchy. The smartest thing to say would have been simply "Air Force Honor Guard traditionally does not wear mustaches so that the team looks uniform." That's it. It would have left the cadet with his own thought process, and wouldn't have carried the weight of a suggestion or recommendation.

In no way was this Air Force Airmen out of bounds by making a "suggestion".

Yes, he was. He utilized his position to alter a cadets behavior into compliance with a tradition that is not our own. Air Force personnel do not have command of CAP personnel.

Suggestion- the process of inducing a thought, sensation, or action in a receptive person without using persuasion and without giving rise to reflection in the recipient.

Exactly. The process resulted in the action of a cadet to comply with an Air Force tradition, not a CAP one. And also stated in the definition, it didn't give give "rise to reflection." Shaky ground.

The Airmen gave the cadet something to think about.  We all know that there are things in the 39-1 that sometimes don't make sense.  As Commander, we often suggest that although you are allowed, you still probably shouldn't.  It is presented as a choice.

It may be presented as a choice in the manual, but when you start suggesting that people "shouldn't" do something, they take it as "don't do this." In which case, you're enforcing your own opinion, however weak the enforcement may be.

I take options all the time that are spelled out in the manual. I don't wear patches on my BDUs(other than the required minimum patches). I wear boots (both dress and combat) with blues(yeah, they're nicely shined). I wear ribbons on my blues(many people don't), and military badges on my BDUs(which some people just don't like). I don't wear anything on the right sleeve of my flightsuits(some people think that looks wierd). Some people have told me I "shouldn't" do some of those things, but it is permitted in the manual and not "suggested" by it as things I "shouldn't" do. Most people have a thought process of "I don't do that, so you shouldn't either." It's wrong.

There isn't even anything in 39-1 that mirrors 36-2903's verbage of "strongly encouraged." I would consider anything "strongly encouraged", but it's not a requirement.

Noboby should be making requirements out of options. If the cadet didn't shave his mustache, would he be docked for it on later inspections? If the answer is "yes", then it's not a "suggestion."

[Hawk200]

To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.

Definitely wrong on the major's part. If the mustache was out of regs, the major would have been right to tell him to get it within standards or "lose the suit." But, that's not the case. He attempted to enforce his own opinion on the cadet, not the publication.

Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??

I think he should be. And there is no way to convince cadets of that when it is obviously untrue.

[MICT1362]

To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??   

This is hazing.  The SM Major told the cadet that his option is the mustache or the uniform.  Seems pretty cut and dry.  If I were you, I would council the Major on the proper policy.



However, in the other instance, there appears to be no such directive.  An Instructor (who is in command of that specific activity) explained the AF tradition.  Suggested that the cadet be more uniform with his team, and left it at that.  The cadet chose to shave the 'stache, and even seemed happy with his decision...  So, at what point did he feel hazed?  I have read nothing to that fact.  And, it is a big reach for someone to bring charges against another based on what they think a third person might have felt like.  You don't know how they felt, unless you ask, and not a single one of these posts has stated that "after speaking with this cadet..."



Hawk,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm not going to get into a knock down drag out over an issues that neither of us was present to witness.  It's just not worth it.

[Eclipse]

One nuance, which probably doesn't change the dynamic of a Cadet interacting with a USAF Honor Guardsman, etc., but no one but CAP personnel are ever in command of, or responsible for, CAP cadets (or seniors for that matter).

Obviously there are always PIC's controlling access to facilities, running training, etc., but it is always a CAP senior member in ultimate command of the people, and our regs trump anyone else's in regards to uniform wear, grooming, etc.  Someone in the military in a position of authority can always invite us to GTFO, but that is as far as their authority goes.

Might not change how a cadet reacts, but would certainly be brought up in the hearing if things get "exciting".

[MICT1362]

So your saying that the Air Force doesn't tell NHQ what they can and can't do?  If that was the case, we wouldn't have to wait for approval from them to do things, like uniform changes...  Ultimately the AF is at the top of our CoC.  If they weren't, we wouldn't have United States Air Force Auxiliary attached to our name.  Maybe I'm wrong.  It's happened before.

[NCRblues]

So when we send the cadets to the HG academy, and the AFHG grades them, the ones that lost can claim it doesn't matter because the AF is never in charge right?

Isn't this how we got in the whole TPU/CSU debacle in the first place? A pissing match with the AF from one of our past commanders...i seem to remember that the CSU caused a lot of heartburn (some of you refuse to believe it, but its true)

I guess when the AF comes in and does inspections, if you fail you can just blow it off because they are not in charge right?

We can tell the AF where to stick it, but, kiss your aircraft goodbye, oh and vehicles and AF missions, and those nice blue uniforms that most of us like to put on when we are at a function. The AF is very very much in charge, some of you just cant admit that because you dont like it....

[Eclipse]

I knew when I wrote that some people would immediately pipe up about the USAF being in the chain.  This is not about trying to win
a contest over who is boss, it is about the reality of the law, regulations, and our charter.

1) The USAF is not in the direct chain of CAP's command except for AFAMS. 

2) The inspection oversight is fairly limited to the scope of waste and abuse of property and funds provided by the appropriations.

3) The USAF has authority over uniform items as granted in the AFI's governing CAP.  That does not equal carte blanche authority over operations and activities.

4) In your specific example, the grades provided by the AFHG are obviously important to the cadets involved, but it confers no real credit within or outside of CAP.

If you can show otherwise beyond hearsay or opinion, have at it.

This has nothing to do with respect, inter-organizational cooperation, or the deference we should be paying to the USAF as their little brother.  This is about the regulatory authority of the USAF over CAP, which was reduced significantly with the legal changes in the late 90's.

[SarDragon]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Yes, I am a senior, as evidenced in my sig, with a beard and moustache. How is the question - "Do you think your facial hair realistically complies with the "well groomed" requirement of the reg?" - hazing? I asked the cadet what he thought about his appearance, and he responded. The general attitude was, "Well, I tried it to see how far I could go, and it probably wasn't really a good idea."

There was no sarcasm involved, nor any intent to demean.

[ol'fido]

I think we're confusing the authority the USAF has over CAP as an institution with whatever authority individual airmen may or may not have at a specific activity.

[Hawk200]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm not going to get into a knock down drag out over an issues that neither of us was present to witness.  It's just not worth it.

I'm not making a fight out of it, simply addressing the basic facts. According to USAFaux2004, he said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance". I assumed from that statement that USAFaux2004 made, he was present when the "suggestion" was made.

So your saying that the Air Force doesn't tell NHQ what they can and can't do?

The Air Force can and does. One member of the Air Force Honor Guard does not represent the Air Force. The Air Force has never told CAP that our Honor Guard personnel may not have mustaches.

Now, if it had been the commander of CAP-USAF, or whatever command CAP is currently aligned under, then the "suggestion" carries weight and would most likely be enacted in some disseminated policy shortly thereafter. If you're on an AF base and you do something that is in direct violation of Air Force directives, that's different. This was not such a case. It was a case of one person "encouraging" a change based on his personal history, not that of the Air Force.

I think we're confusing the authority the USAF has over CAP as an institution with whatever authority individual airmen may or may not have at a specific activity.

This is the whole issue. One person versus the Air Force.

[capchiro]

SarDragon, we may be comparing apples and oranges.  Are implying that the cadets moustaches were outside the Reg's as far as appearance or are you implying that this is how you handle any cadet that shows up with a moustache?

[SarDragon]

SarDragon, we may be comparing apples and oranges.  Are implying that the cadets moustaches were outside the Reg's as far as appearance or are you implying that this is how you handle any cadet that shows up with a moustache?

Generally, the latter. If the cadet answers yes, I let it go, even if I really think it looks like crap. At some point, peer pressure usually prevails, and the fuzz disappears. If the cadet answers no, he knows what the expected course of action is, and the fuzz disappears.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

[Hawk200]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

Seems a little off base, but it may be how I'm interpreting what you've written rather than what you specifically meant.

Does a suggestion from an AF Honor Guard member during the Honor Guard Academy reflect the authority or opinion of the Honor Guard Academy commander? If that's what you're asking, no it doesn't necessarily reflect the HGA/CC.  The "suggestion" made was not in agreement with our publication. That's the problem.

Some people think that no matter what, an airmans "suggestions" are to be followed without question. It doesn't track. We have our own pubs on things, which are generally approved by the Air Force, so an individual member of the Air Force doesn't have the authority to change it. Now, I am not saying that if Airman Joe Blow says "Don't cross that rope!" that we can ignore him. That's a completely different situation, and not relevant to this discussion.

There are some Air Force commanders that don't like our uniform configurations, but most of them don't try to change/countermand our published directives. It appears that one individual member of the AF Honor Guard tried to do so. From the sounds of it, one person here may have been present. I'm starting to think that we need more of the story.

[tsrup]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

Seems a little off base, but it may be how I'm interpreting what you've written rather than what you specifically meant.

Does a suggestion from an AF Honor Guard member during the Honor Guard Academy reflect the authority or opinion of the Honor Guard Academy commander? If that's what you're asking, no it doesn't necessarily reflect the HGA/CC.  The "suggestion" made was not in agreement with our publication. That's the problem.

Some people think that no matter what, an airmans "suggestions" are to be followed without question. It doesn't track. We have our own pubs on things, which are generally approved by the Air Force, so an individual member of the Air Force doesn't have the authority to change it. Now, I am not saying that if Airman Joe Blow says "Don't cross that rope!" that we can ignore him. That's a completely different situation, and not relevant to this discussion.

There are some Air Force commanders that don't like our uniform configurations, but most of them don't try to change/countermand our published directives. It appears that one individual member of the AF Honor Guard tried to do so. From the sounds of it, one person here may have been present. I'm starting to think that we need more of the story.

Or maybe since the story is all second hand, we're blowing this way out of proportion.

Realistically, it was probably an Airman pointing out that a cadet's upper lip coat was kind of dorky.  Not some Airman master plan to undermine and change our uniform manual.

Heck it could have gone down like this:  "You guys are allowed mustaches?  wow, we aren't allowed to in the AF honor guard"
Cadet, starry eyed in wonder of an Active Duty Honor Guard Airman, immediately goes to the bathroom to shave so he can be just like the real deal.

That seems to me to be the more likely scenario..

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

[Hawk200]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

Never heard of such a thing. Got a few friends still active Air Force, I'll ask.

Heck it could have gone down like this:  "You guys are allowed mustaches?  wow, we aren't allowed to in the AF honor guard"
Cadet, starry eyed in wonder of an Active Duty Honor Guard Airman, immediately goes to the bathroom to shave so he can be just like the real deal.

That scenario I wouldn't really have much heartburn over. It doesn't overtly suggest anything. It's simply an informative statement. If that's the way it happened, it's not really a problem. It's more a case of persuasion than direction.

[DC]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

Don't know about specific 'stache advice, but the Gorilla Guide can be accessed here.

[lordmonar]

We tore the gorilla guide when it came out.......and everything that was wrong with it then......is still wrong now.

Bottom line......if it is in regs.....it it within regs.

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

[Spaceman3750]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel: