Cadet Moustache??

[Hawk200]

Go to basic training, no facial hair at all, why should the cadets get the special treatment?

Um...CAP isn't basic training? Also it lasts up to 9 years and participation is on a part-time basis?

To stretch non-apropos analogies, the cadet program is much more akin to tech school than BMT, where Airmen get back to a much more "normal" life.

I can't speak for the AF, but in Navy A Schools you are not permitted facial hair unless you were in the fleet first. If you head there straight out of boot, you have to be clean shaven.

It wasn't meant to be a direct analogy, I was pretty much stating that in the military while in training status, a restriction on facial hair is pretty common. But then again, someone said something, so I suppose Eclipse is morally obligated to express some sort of disagreement and attempt to demonstrate intellectual superiority.

And as you pointed out, you can't speak for the Air Force. It's the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Navy Auxiliary. The Navy has it's ROTC programs, both junior and college level, where they can apply their separate standards as they wish. The Civil Air Patrol cadet program is not within their purview, and attempts to apply it are inappropriate at best, completely wrong at worst.

I don't agree with Eclipse at all times, but in this I do.

I've seen a few cadets sporting the "peach fuzz" mustache. It may be permitted in compliance with 39-1, but it doesn't mean that I might not smile in amusement if I see one that's rather too sparse to be called a true "mustache."

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm almost 21, and I can't grow a thick upper lip carpet.

Heck, I shaved a week ago, and right now look like a hobo with "patches" that are thicker in some places than others.

My cheek/neck hair didn't even start to grow until early this year. Must be those final stages of puberty finally hitting. I doubt if I'll be able to grow a mustache/beard/goatee until I'm north of the 25th, if then.

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

[Hawk200]

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

I'd still say that's wrong to do. If our HG said "No facial hair", you've got two options: get rid of it, or don't be HG. However, we don't have that. Even the "strong suggestion" was inappropriate.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

I'd still say that's wrong to do. If our HG said "No facial hair", you've got two options: get rid of it, or don't be HG. However, we don't have that. Even the "strong suggestion" was inappropriate.

Would this not fall under the authority of command? Commanders can say which uniform/configuration will be worn (BDU covers, no baseball caps/ patches, etc). I'd go with a commanders call of no mustache for cadets as well.

[JayT]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

[tsrup]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They can still tell someone if their 'stache looks funky

[Майор Хаткевич]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They weren't in the chain of command, but this was at Honor Guard Academy, where they were instructors on the drill, the history, and traditions. One of the traditions is no mustaches. They suggested that he remove it, leaving it up to the cadet. He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

[DakRadz]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They weren't in the chain of command, but this was at Honor Guard Academy, where they were instructors on the drill, the history, and traditions. One of the traditions is no mustaches. They suggested that he remove it, leaving it up to the cadet. He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

What I got out of this:
You felt the need to ask him about his mustache shaving routine.



To add a little substance to the post, I agree with the reasoning you've provided. Non-issue to me, given the circumstanced under which this occurred.

[ol'fido]

Although I have seen teen hair and dress styles that left me shaking my head, I have known teenagers that had very thick and full beards and did not look strange at all. Once again it is shaky ground to make generalizations about teens or cadets or any group for that matter.

This is also one of those instances where I agree with Bob. The regs make no difference on moustaches for cadets or seniors.

[Hawk200]

Would this not fall under the authority of command? Commanders can say which uniform/configuration will be worn (BDU covers, no baseball caps/ patches, etc). I'd go with a commanders call of no mustache for cadets as well.

A commander does not have the right to deny something that is permitted by the manual. Patches and insignia authorized by the manual are just that, authorized. Some are even required. A commander doesn't have the authority to change the basic manual.

The only time a commander is permitted to excercise denial or authorization of an item is when the publication says the commander may excercise or deny authorization of an item. Anything else is command failure. A commander is responsible for enforcing all the publications, not the bits and pieces they want to enforce.

[Hawk200]

One of the traditions is no mustaches.

This is a generalization used to rationalize an action. It's also invalid. The Air Force Honor Guard may have a tradition of no mustaches, but Civil Air Patrol does not. That was an Air Force Honor Guard member that overstepped his boundaries.

He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

An easy way for the AF HG member was to simply say that in the AF the HG doesn't traditionally wear mustaches. I'd bet the cadet would have shaved it as soon as possible. The "strong suggestion" wouldn't have been needed, and the HG member wouldn't have overstepped his authority. Plus, the cadet would have made his own decision.
 

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

Agreed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

[DakRadz]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

This is exactly almost what Hawk said would be appropriate- and to a cadet, the mere suggestion is a "strong suggestion" to those of us who are trying to get the most from our instructors as such activities- no reason to rock the boat over extruded waste

Problem resolved, on both counts.

[Hawk200]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

And it would have been acceptable to simply note that Air Force Honor Guard doesn't wear them. If it had stopped there, it would have been fine.

The problem is where the individual "encouraged" the cadet to shave it. Presenting an informative statement like "Our Honor Guard traditionally does not wear mustaches" would have been fine. It was an overstep of the boundaries to add "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team." That statement is more directive than suggestive. It wasn't necessary, and it was wrong. The step too far is what made it wrong.

As I said before, if our Honor Guard had a directive not to wear them, fine. But we don't. So even suggesting it is wrong.

At the upper levels, we have to know when to stop speaking. It prevents problems.

[SarDragon]

Although I have seen teen hair and dress styles that left me shaking my head, I have known teenagers that had very thick and full beards and did not look strange at all. Once again it is shaky ground to make generalizations about teens or cadets or any group for that matter.

This is also one of those instances where I agree with Bob. The regs make no difference on moustaches for cadets or seniors.

That's the key phrase. One of the reasons the Navy got rid of beards was the appearance issue. Young (18-25 yo) sailors would grow something they called a beard, but was really just a collection of patches of facial hair. Some men can't grow decent looking beards at age 40.  Other guys can grow killer beards at 18.

I  have encountered two or three cadets with upper lip hair masquerading as a moustache, and have simply asked each if he thought it realistically complied with the "well groomed" requirement of the reg. Without fail, each gave me a weak smile, and said no. They showed up at the next meeting sans 'stache.

[capchiro]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

[Майор Хаткевич]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Or...calling it like it is. If it looks bad...it looks bad.

Hawk,

He didn't say "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team."

He said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance".

[MICT1362]

As I said before, if our Honor Guard had a directive not to wear them, fine. But we don't. So even suggesting it is wrong.

In no way was this Air Force Airmen out of bounds by making a "suggestion". 

Suggestion- the process of inducing a thought, sensation, or action in a receptive person without using persuasion and without giving rise to reflection in the recipient.

The Airmen gave the cadet something to think about.  We all know that there are things in the 39-1 that sometimes don't make sense.  As Commander, we often suggest that although you are allowed, you still probably shouldn't.  It is presented as a choice.

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Really?! I think that someone would be very surprised to be brought up on hazing charges for something of this nature.  That's like implying that by asking a specific cadet to do a task and not asking for a volunteer out of a group of cadets is hazing.  (I mean, you are singling them out, after all)  It is truly thoughts like this that cause our IG's to spend countless hours investigating events that have no merit of investigating.  If you can show me where someone has been investigated and found "guilty" in an instance like you are describing I would love to see it.



Now, back to topic, since we got so far off.  Yes it is allowed. Period.  It simply has to meet the guidelines stated in CAPM39-1.

-Paramedic

[capchiro]

I think he implied that the moustache was improper or inadequate and in one way was over riding the Reg's and in the other was demeaning the cadet's efforts to grow a moustache.  Either way, I feel that he was out of line and I would file a complaint on him.   To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think he implied that the moustache was improper or inadequate and in one way was over riding the Reg's and in the other was demeaning the cadet's efforts to grow a moustache.  Either way, I feel that he was out of line and I would file a complaint on him.   To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??

That's different from what SarDragon posted.

He had a talk with the cadets, and the cadets realized the folly of their ways.

The Major told the C/Capt to loose the 'stache or loose the suit...quite different and out of line.