CAP Decorations: DSM, ESA, MSA, etc.

[Short Field]

So once you earn your Wilson, you shouldn't be awarded anything for holding down a squadron job?  Guess I need to fly out to the ice floe and join the old pilots...

[RiverAux]

Do an outstanding job for the squadron and get an appropriate award.  Do a satisfactory job but nothing special, get a pat on the back.

Awards are supposed to inspire you to do more than just what is expected of you. 

[DakRadz]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

It's the inside language.

Think of it like this- a cadet Vice Commander finishes his tour.

He becomes C/CC.
He becomes an Advisor to the Staff. (In my experience, these are for highly helpful but college/etc. restricted cadets or sunset/redemption jobs)
He becomes a Flight Commander. (Great immediate leader, but hasn't developed the skills to advance as he should)
All of these say something very, very different thing about job performance if said cadet is still highly involved.

[lordmonar]

Do an outstanding job for the squadron and get an appropriate award.  Do a satisfactory job but nothing special, get a pat on the back.

Awards are supposed to inspire you to do more than just what is expected of you.

Ah.....but is really expected of us?  Bottom line....for some squadrons...all that is expected is that they pay their dues and show up for SAREXs and Missions.

Anyone who stands up and does a half way decent job at one of the staff functions is already 10 times better then the at large members (I am not dissing the at large mission types!)

I got 40 Senior Members in my squadron...about 10 of them actually do the work....some of them just do an adequate job....that is they meet their suspenses and do it with in the guide lines of the regulations.

By your read they should get nothing....the same thing that the guy who have his level V and we only see him one a quarter or so....and shows up to the SAREXs.

[lordmonar]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

You are reading the way the USAF NCO system works.

Did not invent it....just lived through it.

I don't know if the Officer system works the same way...but I would not be suprised.  There are lots of subtle ways your leaders let world know what type of leader you are.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have often thought that we, not just CAP, but the U.S. uniformed services as a whole, have way too many ribbons.  In fact, it's joked about good-naturedly (and sometimes less so) among our allies.

A brand-new slick-sleeve Airman out of Lackland can theoretically come out with five ribbons:

Air Force Training Ribbon
National Defence Service Medal
Air Force Marksmanship Ribbon
BMT Honour Graduate Ribbon
GWOT Service Medal

If said Airman is ANG, s/he can also be eligible for equivalent State ribbons upon return to State command...and this is just for completing BMT and Tech School, before seeing a first deployment.

I once asked my dad, an Army E-4 with two years AD and two years Guard, how many ribbons he had and all he could remember was the Army Good Conduct Medal, Army Marksman's Badge (with "Rifle" bar) and "one or two others."

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

In comparison:

Air Vice-Marshal Graham Lintott, RNZAF
http://www.airforce.mil.nz/operations/airforce-news/110/image-gallery/oh08023002.htm

Air Marshal Mark Binskin, RAAF
http://img215.imageshack.us/f/58608077.jpg/

Generalleutnant Peter Schelzig, Luftwaffe
http://tinyurl.com/GenLtSchelzig

Lieutenant-General Andre Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff, Canada
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/page-eng.asp?id=28

I've seen CAP officers just wearing CAP ribbons who have more than these distinguished gentlemen.

[lordmonar]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

[flyboy53]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

You are reading the way the USAF NCO system works.

Did not invent it....just lived through it.

I don't know if the Officer system works the same way...but I would not be suprised.  There are lots of subtle ways your leaders let world know what type of leader you are.

Actually, you both are forgetting a few things.

First, if that certain senior NCO received one or two Achievement Medals during the same tour, the eligibility criteria for the end of tour begins with the end of the award period of the last Achievement Medal. Therefore, that same individual may only get an AFCM at end of tour, but it's the third of three decorations for achievement/meritorious service in three or more years of a tour and he or she obviously didn't screw up.

Second, I don't care how strongly awards and decorations are stressed at the unit level, the recommendation may go to a supervisor who has his own criteria for what would be the acceptable recognition. And, another big and, a lot of supervisors in the field are nuts and bolts types that don't want to bother with the paperwork of such a recommendation. The same holds true for the CAP at unit level. The only thing that changed that in the Air Force was when decorations became points for WAPS testing.

Third, although officers tend to stress decorations a lot more, it isn't uncommon to see officers with only service medals and unit awards...even pilots....and I've known a few who only earned one AFCM -- their only decoration-- their entire career.

[lordmonar]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

No....back during the Vietnam War everyone got it out of basic.  The Basic training ribbon was invented when they stopped giving out the NDSM in the 70's and the new guys had nothing on their uniforms.

[SarDragon]

Details here.

[flyboy53]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

No....back during the Vietnam War everyone got it out of basic.  The Basic training ribbon was invented when they stopped giving out the NDSM in the 70's and the new guys had nothing on their uniforms.

The Air Force Training Ribbon or "Battle of Lackand" Ribbon was introduced in the early 1980s to recognize everyone that voluntarily joined during the All Volunteer Forces Concept -- no draft. Not everyone wanted to wear it at first. Then popularity grew and the criteria was expanded. The NDSM was created during the Korean War to recognize those people serving during designated periods of national emergency. There is always a cutoff when the national emergency ends. Since Korea, I think it's been awarded four times. Think of this medal as a sort of universal recognition that the individual has served during a war or period of national emergency.

Don't trump the meaning of this medal. It also reflects a cost-savings. During World War II, there were two similar medals awarded. The American Defense Medal (yellow ribbon) was awarded for the period of emergency leading to Pearl Harbor. Then if you served one day up until 1946 you got a World War II Victory Medal.

[Майор Хаткевич]

 Since 9/11 according to the wiki posted, it has been authorized for wear. But now we have the GWOT too, which makes it somewhat redundant, as both appear to be blanket awards.

[DBlair]

Essentially, from what I've gathered thus far in this discussion is that the MSA is the highest that is ever really awarded for actual deeds/service, and only in rare cases, as anyone below the level of 'Director' positions on Wing Staff will normally get a Commander's Commendation or Achievement Award. Also, I've gathered that DSM, ESA, and most MSAs are normally handed out as 'end of tour' type decorations, usually to Region level and up.

Thus, the most anyone below the level of a 'Director' position on Wing Staff can ever hope/dream of receiving is a Commander's Commendation- and due to politics, it is often quite difficult to get someone to put a member in for a decoration, not to mention get it approved.

I've seen the discouragement/frustrating a member may get when some awards are regularly knocked down, while others are given out like candy- I've seen a young Cadet who has more CCs than probably any member I've ever seen for nothing more than regular participation, while other members (Cadet or SM) may spend many years giving an incredible 150% effort, only to go unrecognized, and it seems that "end of tour" decorations tend to add fuel to the fire of frustration with the way decorations are given out and only re-emphasizes the idea of the 'good ol' boy system' we often hear discussed.

In the conversation this original post was based on, one of the members mentioned he had been put in for an MSA, but then it was downgraded to a CC, supposedly he was told that at the Squadron level a CC is the most any member should ever even hope to receive- which seems to be a discouraging sore spot for him. (I don't personally know the facts of his situation, though, I'm just mentioning what was said.)

Personally, I'm all for rewarding members for the great things they do. I actually think we have many more members who deserve recognition than we give awards to. In a volunteer environment, it is a nice to be rewarded and awards encourage us to perform to a higher level. This is not to say that I think they should be given out like candy, but only to those who do an outstanding job.

I'm against 'end of tour' awards given just for the sake of holding a position. If the member did an outstanding job, then great, recognize them, but I don't believe we should be giving out decorations just for doing a satisfactory job when there are others out there who are going above and beyond doing absolutely incredible things and don't get any recognition at all.



Sidenote- Has anyone ever tried to put themselves in for a decoration? Is this theoretically allowed? lol Perhaps this would help to eliminate some of the award nomination problems. haha (said at least partially tounge in cheek)

[MICT1362]

Sidenote- Has anyone ever tried to put themselves in for a decoration? Is this theoretically allowed? lol Perhaps this would help to eliminate some of the award nomination problems. haha (said at least partially tounge in cheek)

CAPR 39-3 Pg 7.

10. Procedures for Recommending Decorations.

a. Who May Initiate Recommendations. Any CAP member having knowledge of an act or service meriting recognition may initiate a recommendation for an award, except that awards concerning commanders must be initiated at a higher command level or by the appointing authority for NEC members.

So, I would say yes, theoretically you could nominate yourself for an award.  Not that you would want to.  But hey, somebody might. LOL

-Paramedic

[DBlair]

Oh my. LOL

[lordmonar]

Since 9/11 according to the wiki posted, it has been authorized for wear. But now we have the GWOT too, which makes it somewhat redundant, as both appear to be blanket awards.

The GWOTS medal was not supposed to be a blanket award....but with the nature of warfare it just became easier to award it as a blanket award.

[MICT1362]

Oh my. LOL

Didn't say that I agree.  Simply saying.

[DBlair]

Oh my. LOL

Didn't say that I agree.  Simply saying.

Yea, I was just imagining a bunch of people rushing to submit nominations. hehe

[arajca]

A complaint I've heard from group and wing levels isn't putting folks in for higher awards than appropriate, it's getting folks put in for ANY awards.

If commanders don't put folks in for awards or foward nominations, they won't get recognized.

When COWG finished the narrowband transition, I put a number of members in for awards ranging from CC to ESM. Of course, just before we were to present the ESM, I found out the region/cc changed his mind (the wing/cc, region/cc, and I discussed this prior to submittal) and decided the DSM was more appropriate and we were waiting for national approval on it. Go figure.