Medic

[RiverAux]

This was the official Red Cross First Responder course (about 40 hours).  No CERT stuff.  Same FR class as the firefighters take in my state if they go to the fire academy. 

[davidsinn]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

My wife took it in college to the tune of $700. A local unit does it through ARC using a CAP member as instructor for a deep discount at a price of $100. In IN it's the step right below EMT-B. My volunteer fire company is about 50% first responders and they get there to do initial stabilization before the bus with EMTs arrives. My county does not currently have any paramedics.

Your entire county doesn't have a single active medic? Wow. We're spoiled out here!

True story. We currently have three ambulances with two EMTs per rig on duty 24/7. They are looking at hiring some paramedics so that one is on duty in the center of the county 24/7 and would drive an SUV and meet the rig at the victim or en route to the hospital. We don't have any professional fire fighters either.

[SJFedor]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

My wife took it in college to the tune of $700. A local unit does it through ARC using a CAP member as instructor for a deep discount at a price of $100. In IN it's the step right below EMT-B. My volunteer fire company is about 50% first responders and they get there to do initial stabilization before the bus with EMTs arrives. My county does not currently have any paramedics.

Your entire county doesn't have a single active medic? Wow. We're spoiled out here!

True story. We currently have three ambulances with two EMTs per rig on duty 24/7. They are looking at hiring some paramedics so that one is on duty in the center of the county 24/7 and would drive an SUV and meet the rig at the victim or en route to the hospital. We don't have any professional fire fighters either.

Pretty common out here. I work in a large urban 911 service and we still have some trucks that are BLS staffed for 911 response. Granted, theres so many hospitals in metro that they can just load and go and be to the nearest facility in 10-15 min. And we tend to have them in the middle of ALS resources, so any direction they run, we can intercept or dual response.

However, Indiana does have an EMT-Basic Advanced course, which a lot of counties who are short on medics use. It's essentially EMT-Basic plus IV initiation w/ fluids and basic cardiology/cardiac monitoring (mainly just recognition of arrhythmias and manual defib, from before the days of AEDs). Plus EMT-B's in Indiana already have some advanced airway toys (combi-tube seems to be prevalent throughout IN). I'm betting most of the techs in your county are AEMT-B's.

And if your wife shelled out $700 for an FR class, sorry to say it, but she got jacked. She coulda done EMT-B for about the same price.

[JayT]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

The CFR-D/EMR-D whatever NREMT is trying to call it these days is the 50 hour course. Anything less then that is just some advance first aid.

[SJFedor]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

The CFR-D/EMR-D whatever NREMT is trying to call it these days is the 50 hour course. Anything less then that is just some advance first aid.

Thought I heard EMT-FR once.... more alphabet soup.

[CadetProgramGuy]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

The CFR-D/EMR-D whatever NREMT is trying to call it these days is the 50 hour course. Anything less then that is just some advance first aid.

Thought I heard EMT-FR once.... more alphabet soup.

There is no National registry for First Responders.

EDIT - Stand Corrected.

And in the near future there will be a name change to EMT's as well

Emergency Medical Responder - First Responders
Emergency Medical Technician - EMT- basics
Advanced Emergency Medical Technician - EMT Intermediates (99 curricula)
Paramedic  - EMT-P

[Spaceman3750]

NREMT registers first responders.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Edited my last, you're right.

[RiverAux]

NREMT registers first responders.

True, but I don't think but a small fraction of folks with the training get registered since it isn't required (anyplace that I know about, that is). 

[JayT]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

The CFR-D/EMR-D whatever NREMT is trying to call it these days is the 50 hour course. Anything less then that is just some advance first aid.

Thought I heard EMT-FR once.... more alphabet soup.

There is no National registry for First Responders.

EDIT - Stand Corrected.

And in the near future there will be a name change to EMT's as well

Emergency Medical Responder - First Responders
Emergency Medical Technician - EMT- basics
Advanced Emergency Medical Technician - EMT Intermediates (99 curricula)
Paramedic  - EMT-P

Actually, according to the last proprosal I read, the break down would be

CFR=EMR
EMT-B=EMT
EMT-I/85=AEMT
EMT-I/99 and EMT-P= Paramedic

I also read a few things proposing trying to make the CCEMPT/MICUM/APEMTP recognized as a sort of 'super paramedic' grade.

Its kinda a moot point for me, because NY doesn't recognize NR.

[SARTAC Medic]

Joe, all of those advanced medic courses are not functional levels of certification, but rather advanced training for specific needs sort of like how PHTLS, ATLS, PALS, ACLS, (you get the point) are nationally recognized standards of training that folks working in some capacity need to for their job.  I am a state paramedic, but as a paramedic I need to hold certifications in ACLS and PALS for one job, just PALS for another... while someone at, North Shore can take the CCEMTP course to do critical care transports.  The state will never recognize the CCEMTP course for anything as a level, but the job can have people take the course to learn the knowledge and have a cert to prove the completed it.  (hope that was understandable)

Also, as far as cost goes... Red Cross teaches the Emergency Response course which is based on the DOT standard for First Responder.   National Safety Council currently has a First Responder Course which I am molding our "Field Medic" academy around as I am writing the curriculum.   From what I understand, NESA's first responder course was the National Safety Council First Responder course.   Both are similar to the DOT requirements, but each state has their own requirements if they have  CFR type program like New York's. 

Currently practicing instructors can become grandfathered into the NSC as instructors at their current level, and if you are an EMT or higher you may apply to teach the NCS First Responder Course for them.    The total cost for the students to take the First Responder Course is not much higher then taking a First Aid Course, but it VERY time intensive.  The bare minimum for teaching he First Responder Course is 140 hours of class room time.   This is a CRAZY mount of time to expect a CAP cadet or volunteer member to do without pay (IMHO).   We are planning on offering the course as a second step in the process of our field medic course.   Cost wise, the student manual for the First Responder is about $50 dollars for the books and cert card not withstanding the time for the course to be run.   Most places will charge for paying the instructor, paying for coffee/bagels on the day of the class, and other administrative fees.   

As a final thought, I do not see cap needing people certified beyond first aid through CAP since there is a definite policy against cap members performing schedule aid stations, or rending other then life saving first aid.   National wants members to turf the work to the professionals (NON CAP) for anything beyond basic first aid.    If a cadet at a FTX gets injured on day three... they should be turfed home or to the hospital as appropriate if its anything other then small abrasion in my opinion.  While wilderness first aid TEACHES TOURNIQUETS and wound packing techniques to the students for use in the field, there is no need for a cadet who is injured on that level to stay at the activity if there is a way for them to go home and have parents or clinics deal with the problems.   

I could go on and on with my own personal stance on what CAP should and shouldn't be doing as far as medical aid and I will probably make a few enemies here and there, but the FACT IS THAT CAP IS A SELF CARE, FIRST AID ORGANIZATION, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LIFE THREATS!!.

we do not have a medical director, we do not have protocols, we do not have ability to carry oxygen and other items needed to save lives. 

Would a First Responder Course be useful, yes.  It will teach people how to handle and evaluate situations in order to know what is severe or not.  But bystanders know when someone is hurt without training and they can still call EMS just as readily as a paramedic who is out of his jurisdiction and without equipment.   

[CadetProgramGuy]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

The CFR-D/EMR-D whatever NREMT is trying to call it these days is the 50 hour course. Anything less then that is just some advance first aid.

Thought I heard EMT-FR once.... more alphabet soup.

There is no National registry for First Responders.

EDIT - Stand Corrected.

And in the near future there will be a name change to EMT's as well

Emergency Medical Responder - First Responders
Emergency Medical Technician - EMT- basics
Advanced Emergency Medical Technician - EMT Intermediates (99 curricula)
Paramedic  - EMT-P

Actually, according to the last proprosal I read, the break down would be

CFR=EMR
EMT-B=EMT
EMT-I/85=AEMT
EMT-I/99 and EMT-P= Paramedic

I also read a few things proposing trying to make the CCEMPT/MICUM/APEMTP recognized as a sort of 'super paramedic' grade.

Its kinda a moot point for me, because NY doesn't recognize NR.

The EMT 83 and EMT 99 folks will get rolled into the AEMT, problem will be in the con ed classes to make them AEMT's

Here in IA, the EMT99 folks will have 3 certification periods (6years) to bridge up to Paramedic, bridge over to an AEMT or bridge down to a basic.

Most of the rural counties of Iowa have teh EMT-I 99 running as "Iowa Paramedics"  Unless they bridge up, most of those counties will lose their Paramedics. 

In Des Moines Fire alone, that require all to be Paramedics, will have 60ish members that have to take classes.

[SJFedor]

KY just recently started recognizing the AEMT cert, and I can only think of 1 or 2 services that use them in the state, and those were the testbeds for the AEMT program.

[JayT]

Joe, all of those advanced medic courses are not functional levels of certification, but rather advanced training for specific needs sort of like how PHTLS, ATLS, PALS, ACLS, (you get the point) are nationally recognized standards of training that folks working in some capacity need to for their job.  I am a state paramedic, but as a paramedic I need to hold certifications in ACLS and PALS for one job, just PALS for another... while someone at, North Shore can take the CCEMTP course to do critical care transports.  The state will never recognize the CCEMTP course for anything as a level, but the job can have people take the course to learn the knowledge and have a cert to prove the completed it.  (hope that was understandable)

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Like I said, it was just a proposal I saw in some NREMT white paper about pushing for a wider acceptable of any sort of advance practice paramedic.

Good to see you back Dave, as soon as I'm done with Stony Brook I'm getting back in.

[SARDOC]

I thought you guys were just certified "ambulance drivers"     

[SARTAC Medic]

Joe, Glad to be back.. just trying to get my papers in order


And yes, sometimes I feel like a glorified taxi driver, hobo wrangler, and part tim zombie hunter.   

[JayT]

Joe, Glad to be back.. just trying to get my papers in order


And yes, sometimes I feel like a glorified taxi driver, hobo wrangler, and part tim zombie hunter.

If there was ever a zombie attack, we'd be the last to figure it out. Even if the zombies took over the dispatch centers, we wouldn't know the difference.

[fyrfitrmedic]

"Emergency Medical Responder" IS "First Responder".  They just changed the name. 

Not sure where you're getting your prices from though.  Last time RC did one locally it was like $40.

Not necessarily - a lot of members around me have taken classes called "first responder" which is basically first aid + CERT, etc.,
offered by local agencies for about $40.

Full-on EMR classes run $700-900+.

Wow - somebody's being taken to the cleaners with that price; although I guess it depends on where and who's offering the course. EMT classes in this part of the world run $300 or less.

[sarmed1]

The bare minimum for teaching he First Responder Course is 140 hours of class room time.

That hour requirement seems a litte steep to me.  My personal experience is 40 hours (a curiosity check of the interweb shows on average 40-50 hours, some listed as low as 24 and some as high as 80)... but obviously each state often does its own thing (the whole must meet or exceed the DOT/NREMT type standard)

Dave, as far as teaching institutes go I would consider ECSI; they use the AAOS series of texts; offer a Wilderness Advanced First Aid (customizable from 8-36 hours) as well as a First Responder cert.  HMRS used NSC in the past and moved away from them as thier pricing began increasing and increasing to match demand from the OSHA/industrial need.  ECSI offers pretty much the same instructor reciprocities (grandfathering), has no costs required other than purchase of the books and cards.  WFA is about $25 to the teaching center and FR $60 (last time I had to buy books)
HMRS currently uses the 36 hour Wilderness course as thier base certifiation; then adds in CPR and a number of "Hawk" specific blocks covering areas such as field sanitation and hygeine, illness/injury prevention, evacuation etc.  They graduate year 1 with the hope of coming back next yaer to continue on.  This gives them a year to get out there, review and practice thier skills; they have set up 10 approx 1 hour self study con-ed papers for them to keep fresh on during the year.  Year 2 then roles in first responder and additional training (basically a more in depth coverage of some of the first year topics)

They had done a 40 ARC/DOT first responder course in the past, all in year one and found when coupled with the additional wilderness/SAR/prevention topics they were pretty much sitting in a classroom for 9 days.  The WFA course gave them the most bang for the buck and felxabilty in the schedule.  This way they get classroom time (its a long 3 days) plenty of practice time, they then "intern" with an existing medic for the 3 day field problem, then still have study time and test time at the end of the week (plus throw in a few other fun times... ground ambulance familirization, helicopter familirization and a cardio/resp disection lecture) as well as time to work on their standard SAR qualifications.

mk

[ryan.turner]

Here's a question: does CAP consider an EMR an EMT? Some paperwork I've dealt with for my state and nremt licensure have referred to it as EMT-FR... not trying to push the limits, just curious. My assumption is no, but maybe others have dealt with this before.