QuoteFrom Nuke:Actually, I didn't.  I said, and I quote, "Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?"  Not the same thing, but it does illustrate...

Most people that use the word hater start by painting those people as full of hate. So from why ya gotta hate? to using the word hater is not far. Maybe I read too much into it, but that is what I see in newspapers and the media. However, if you do not care, why answer my message at all? 

I'm just gonna shake it off...

Dover Police DashCam Confessional (Shake it Off)

Hey, guys, aren't the senior members supposed to also be the adult members? Have you forgotten that there still some cadets reading this forum? Fine example we're setting here.

Quote from: shuman14 on February 10, 2015, 06:49:26 PM

Quote from: LTC Don on February 10, 2015, 06:43:42 PM
Wow! 

I try to stay out of these CAPTalk slingfests, but that is one huge honkin' pitcher of Kool-Aid right there.

I need a little something something in my Kool-Aid along with a cookie   

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on February 11, 2015, 01:39:33 AM

QuoteFrom Nuke:Actually, I didn't.  I said, and I quote, "Eclipse, why ya gotta hate?"  Not the same thing, but it does illustrate...

Most people that use the word hater start by painting those people as full of hate. So from why ya gotta hate? to using the word hater is not far. Maybe I read too much into it, but that is what I see in newspapers and the media.

Luis, yes, you read too much into it--especially considering that the offense you read into it was 180 degrees out from the playful jocularity that was actually written into it. 

QuoteHowever, if you do not care, why answer my message at all? 

I confess:  in a moment of weakness I succumbed to the romantic notion that some measure of education may yet have been possible.  I suppose only time will tell, but the prognosis is not good.

Quote from: SarDragon on February 11, 2015, 04:11:05 AM
Hey, guys, aren't the senior members supposed to also be the adult members? Have you forgotten that there still some cadets reading this forum? Fine example we're setting here.

Yeah, seriously guys, does Full Time Cadet's thread really deserve this?

[Everyone run, the fun police are on the scene!]

I don't understand why they would have "non-payment" issues or why they'd be unique to CAP.  I've always known vendors to either bill a card when the order is taken, or right before shipping.  Card doesn't clear - you notify the customer and do not ship the order until the card is cleared.  I had a card get declined for what the issuer regarded as an unusual purchase (a little over-protective in that case, but whatever).  Was notified, and was able to quickly get it authorized and processed.  No problem for me or them...

"Non-payment issues"?  It sounds like they are just making up stuff that "sounds good" on the fly now.

Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/veterans/2014/10/17/proposed-online-aafes-shopping-for-vets-inches-forward/17434589/

You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

Back when I was 'doing time' at 'Kwajatraz Federal Penitentiary' (it's a Kwaj thing... you wouldn't understand! ) my civilian contractor CAC was endorsed with 'Commissary', 'Overseas MWR' and 'Unlimited Exchange', which allowed me to purchase at the brick-and-mortar commissaries and exchanges, plus stay at the overseas MWR resorts. Online access to the Exchange web site was allowed, except for purchasing military uniforms online. However, I was able to talk to the AAFES store manager on Kwaj and he was able to procure for me a complete mess dress uniform when I needed to get one for NSC.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 12, 2015, 05:22:02 AM
Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/veterans/2014/10/17/proposed-online-aafes-shopping-for-vets-inches-forward/17434589/

Anyone who uses the VA can also use the VCS (Veterans Canteen Service) just like mail order AAFES/NEX.  Good prices on really expensive stuff, but they don't carry the moderate or low priced items a lot of people prefer.  For example, you can buy a pair of $50 Levis for ~$35 but a pair of $12 Wrangler jeans is out of the question...

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 12, 2015, 08:54:11 AM
You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

Hm...maybe, maybe not - it's canonized in an AR and AFI that CAP has access. and as a DOD agency AAFES bound to respect that.  Base access to get to
the stores is a separate issue.

With that said, if AAFES says "no mas", or is going to be difficult to work with, then NHQ either needs to intervene or find another source.
The suggestion that mail order, literally "filling out a form and putting a check in the mail and hoping that something magically appears
in the mailbox 'at some point" is simply ridiculous in a day and age where you can buy cars and houses with a click.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 12, 2015, 05:22:02 AM
Meanwhile, there is a proposal to open AAFES mail order to all veterans, retired or not.  According to this article, it amounts to nothing more than a "policy change."

It begs the question - if they can open this avenue up to hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they get creative with a "policy change" to assist Air Force Auxiliary members by facilitating phone orders?

That may or may not be true.  AAFES is contending that it only requires a "policy change".  However, DoD officials are unsure and a legal review is required.  It may require a change in the law.

Also, all three exchange services have to agree to extend the benefit.  So if AAFES supports it but Navy Exchange Service does not, then the idea is stuck.  Further, the exchange services must demonstrate that it won't negatively affect supply to current service members and retirees. 

Why would NEX/MCX need to agree? There are very few CAP usable items available at these places. I know, I shop there all the time.

Quote from: SarDragon on February 12, 2015, 07:56:54 PM
Why would NEX/MCX need to agree? There are very few CAP usable items available at these places. I know, I shop there all the time.

I was refering to opening the exchange services to all veterans as was discussed in the linked article. I would assume that the DoD requires all exchange services to have similar policies in order to maintain a consensus in SOPs.  As it pertains to CAP, it may not be as simple as a policy change as suggested as it may depend on the contracts and rules governing the exchange services.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2015, 03:23:24 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 12, 2015, 08:54:11 AM
You guys are all forgetting something,  AAFES doesn't have to make special concessions for us at all.  Does it suck yes it does and yes it makes things difficult but AAFES does not have to take phone orders if they choose not to.   To many of you guys are wrapped up in that we are the Auxiliary and are showing way to much sense of entitlement when it comes to installation access and AAFES access.

Hm...maybe, maybe not - it's canonized in an AR and AFI that CAP has access. and as a DOD agency AAFES bound to respect that.  Base access to get to
the stores is a separate issue.

With that said, if AAFES says "no mas", or is going to be difficult to work with, then NHQ either needs to intervene or find another source.
The suggestion that mail order, literally "filling out a form and putting a check in the mail and hoping that something magically appears
in the mailbox 'at some point" is simply ridiculous in a day and age where you can buy cars and houses with a click.

The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax. 

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 12, 2015, 08:36:49 PM
The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax.

It makes no distinction between sales channels, nor does it appear to allow for one service to have different access requirements then others.
CAP is only mentioned in two places, and in the same way as other services.

This appears to be another place where the relationship was set up at the bare-bones level, with a hope that "it'll usually work OK", instead
of insuring that it does.  As JC pointed out, these are the easily rectified pinch points that impact retention - a member finally
gets the $300 together for service dress, and it's a root canal to try and give someone the money.  It goes to member confidence and
the idea that CAP is a "partner" not a "contractor" (actually, contractors get treated better on most bases).  That story then gets propagated
at the next meeting, and the story is out that "you can't buy from AAFES any more".  Rinse, repeat.

You can't fall back on "we're working on it", either, because this issue of AAFES people acting like CAP people are trying to pull a fast one
has been a problem for a decade, at least.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2015, 08:54:08 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 12, 2015, 08:36:49 PM
The AFI states what we as Civil Air Patrol can do with AAFES facilities.  It does not say that AAFES has to sell to a member over the phone, mail, or fax.

It makes no distinction between sales channels, nor does it appear to allow for one service to have different access requirements then others.
CAP is only mentioned in two places, and in the same way as other services.

This appears to be another place where the relationship was set up at the bare-bones level, with a hope that "it'll usually work OK", instead
of insuring that it does. 

You can't fall back on "we're working on it", either, because this issue of AAFES people acting like CAP people are trying to pull a fast one
has been a problem for a decade, at least.

Sir,  I can tell you that if it's not in the AFI they do not have to do it.  And I'm sure if you look it says AAFES facilities.

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 12, 2015, 08:56:03 PM
Sir,  I can tell you that if it's not in the AFI they do not have to do it.  And I'm sure if you look it says AAFES facilities.

Of course I looked - it doesn't. The term "exchange" is used as a generic term for all sales outlets including e-commerce throughout the document.
Ultimately all it says is that CAP has access for uniform sales and food and limited other items when assigned to a base or at a base activity.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf   Page 26-27

"7–10. Limited exchange privileges
Limited exchange access applies to the United States and all U.S. territories and possessions (except as noted).
Generally, it excludes tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, and military uniforms. Table 7–2 lists individuals,
organizations, and activities entitled to purchases from AAFES."

14. Servicemembers of the Civil Air Patrol in a travel status and
occupying government quarters on a DOD installation.

a. For purchases other than uniforms, they will be identified with
their current membership card, their travel authorization, and evidence
they are occupying government quarters on the installation.
b. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is
shown.
c. No state tax-free tobacco items.
d. No tax-free alcohol beverages.

15. Civil Air Patrol cadets.

a. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is
shown.
b. All food and beverage sold at any AAFES food activity, if consumed
on post.

Now, Page 29 has some verbiage regarding credit card sales, but it is very generic and not specific to CAP or anyone else.
d. Credit sales. Authority for credit card policies, procedures, limitations, and controls governing acceptance of
credit cards rests with the AAFES director and chief executive officer.