I hope they didn't just give them away - In my old unit that's what they gave you if you got killed in "peacetime" combat.  Getting two and living to tell about it was an honor I'm not sure I deserved compared to others.

Quote from: Gunner C on December 17, 2009, 04:13:18 PM
It also has to do with what you do and when you do it.

This is true.  I had a supervisor who did a couple of combat tours in Thailand, got up to Master Sergeant, got a commission and retired as a Captain with 24+ years in the USAF, with his last posting being at the Pentagon.  I noticed he had a "pocket rocket," which I'd always associated with ICBM's, silos, "The Day After," etc.  When I asked him he laughed and said "I got this for hanging Sidewinders and Shrikes on Phantoms and Thuds at Korat, Thailand."

His ribbon rack was just unreal, not surprising given his long career with combat time.  Even if he would have wanted to, I doubt he could have worn the full whack on his light blue shirt, because it was just so massive.

He had wanted to get involved with CAP but never did...I can't imagine what his ribbon rack would have looked like with all the AF chest candy plus CAP stuff.

Also, remember that ANG/ARNG types often have two racks; one with their state ribbons and one without for FAD, since they cannot wear state ribbons when on FAD (nor in CAP; a point of contention with some ex-Guard CAP'ers).

Quote from: mashcraft on December 17, 2009, 09:47:32 PMJust the ribbons, for all services mentioned.

So you probably counted a large number of ribbons that are no longer authorized for award, even though they show on the listing.

What's your source on the counts?

Quote from: CyBorg on December 18, 2009, 05:37:11 AMAlso, remember that ANG/ARNG types often have two racks; one with their state ribbons and one without for FAD, since they cannot wear state ribbons when on FAD (nor in CAP; a point of contention with some ex-Guard CAP'ers).

I wouldn't say "often", it's actually pretty rare for Guard types to go on a Title 10 status where they would need a special rack. Deployments are about the only Title 10 that Guard types get, and I don't even know when they would wear Service/Class A.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 16, 2009, 05:11:50 PM
When I read a CAP rack, I'm looking mostly at the bottom and top rows.

The bottom rows tell me what you actually did, the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time).

The mid-rows are kind of an attitude filter about PD - if you're a 1st Lt. with a 25 on your Red Service, or a Major with no Level II, it says
"something".  What that "something" is varies, and does not imply a negative or positive.

That's why I'm not a fan of short-stacking, because the ribbons tell a story as a whole, leave some out and you're leaving out pieces of the puzzle.

I havent thought about it like that but you are right. I have seen the same with some "career captains" who just dont care about doing anything other than what they do now. They are not bad people they just like the way things are for them. The only part I dont completly agree with is the "the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time)", I view this more as someone took the time to do the writeup.


I have only come across a few that had enough to touch the top of the lapel. This was a combination of AD and CAP. I say wear everyone of you want. Be proud of it.

I believe it inspires our cadets and gets them to ask questions. There is a SER member who wears them all. He totals about 40.

Just a couple comments on two recent posts...

The Air Force pocket rocket can be earned by anyone who work on missles, whether the ICBM or Air to Air types. There are two different badges. One badge, more common and around since the 1960s, worn mostly by missile maintenance types, is the badge that has been used since it was developed. Years ago, operations types, like launch officers, were authorized a missle badge with a wreath in the center of the badge, called the operations designator. I guess you could say they felt the need for speed. There is a new badge called the Space and Missile Operations Badge, or Buzz Light Year badge, that has expanded criteria to include even Army personnel who have some sort of space-related function.

Another post related to ANG active duty types. The correct term for ANG is Title 32. The correct term for Air Force Reserve types is Title 10. Both relate to voluntary tours of active duty -- between 24 and 48 months -- and the difference relates to the Guard being a state function under the contol of a governor. I know, I was on a Title 10 tour for almost eight years.

When an ANG type goes on a title 32 tour, they are prohibited from wearing their state ribbons, Air Guard types and AFR types have two medals: The AF Reserve Meritorious Service Medal (a reserve good conduct medal) and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal. Eligibility for the AFRMSM stops and they begin active service. They then start the period required of a Good Conduct Medal (which, by the way was reinstated) while the AFRM continues. In some cases, this medal is worn with a "M" mobilization device to reflect a call-up during a national crisis.

Quote from: flyboy1 on December 18, 2009, 01:00:50 PM
The Air Force pocket rocket can be earned by anyone who work on missles, whether the ICBM or Air to Air types. There are two different badges. One badge, more common and around since the 1960s, worn mostly by missile maintenance types, is the badge that has been used since it was developed. Years ago, operations types, like launch officers, were authorized a missle badge with a wreath in the center of the badge, called the operations designator. I guess you could say they felt the need for speed. There is a new badge called the Space and Missile Operations Badge, or Buzz Light Year badge, that has expanded criteria to include even Army personnel who have some sort of space-related function.

Or as some wags call it, the 'pocket rocket with the toilet seat'. 

Here in 'Kwajatraz', the primary agency is the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command, so it's not unusual for some of the Army guys to be sporting black 'spwings' on their ACUs.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 18, 2009, 05:48:56 AM

Quote from: mashcraft on December 17, 2009, 09:47:32 PMJust the ribbons, for all services mentioned.

So you probably counted a large number of ribbons that are no longer authorized for award, even though they show on the listing.

What's your source on the counts?

I used the ribbon checker at http://www.militarywives.com/. 

It was the best way, for me, to count the total on my computer screen.  I did do a spot check between a number of ribbon checker programs and it was close to the numbers I posted.  Either way, the active duty has a lot more ribbons than CAP will ever have.

Quote from: flyboy1 on December 18, 2009, 01:00:50 PMWhen an ANG type goes on a title 32 tour, they are prohibited from wearing their state ribbons,

Interesting, and a bit different from the ArNG. Title 32 (Full time National Guard duty) is specifically mentioned as allowing state decs in 670-1. Kinda screwy that it's OK for Army, but not for Air.

Quote from: flyboy1 on December 18, 2009, 01:00:50 PMAir Guard types and AFR types have two medals: The AF Reserve Meritorious Service Medal (a reserve good conduct medal) and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal. Eligibility for the AFRMSM stops and they begin active service. They then start the period required of a Good Conduct Medal (which, by the way was reinstated) while the AFRM continues. In some cases, this medal is worn with a "M" mobilization device to reflect a call-up during a national crisis.

Another side that shows as wierd. The ArNG version of the ARFMSM is the ARCAM (Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal). It's basically a Guard/Reserve version of a Good Conduct. Once activated for Title 10, eligibility for it stops completely. The time accrued is essentially "wiped", and it starts over once you come off Title 10. The downside is that the way the regs are written currently, a Guard soldier on Title 10 is not eligible for an Army Good Conduct, which for times of war is a yearly award. Even though our unit spent twelve and a half months on Title 10, the enlisted soldiers in our unit aren't eligible for it. A few have had some heartburn over it.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 17, 2009, 04:52:05 AM
Using NORAD as an example:

The Commander of NORAD, General Victor "Gene" Renuart, Jr, USAF:

http://www.norad.mil/leaders/Bio_Gen_Renuart_Nov09.pdf

It's a lot, but thing is you don't even really need to read his bio to have an idea of where he's been and what he's done.

A ribbon rack is a resume, it's just worn rather than printed. On our side, the problem is having multiple ribbons that would tell the exact same thing as a single ribbon with multiple devices. Why do we need five ribbons to tell PD progression when one ribbon with four devices would do? It still reads the same. Unless someone has a real problem with simple math, then there's no practical reason for it.

Five ribbons is simply for the sake of having five ribbons. In this case, the more doesn't tell you anything different.

Getting too what started this forum, I think that there should be a ribbon for Curry, then on for each of the milestone achievements.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 18, 2009, 07:35:04 PMOn our side, the problem is having multiple ribbons that would tell the exact same thing as a single ribbon with multiple devices. Why do we need five ribbons to tell PD progression when one ribbon with four devices would do? It still reads the same. Unless someone has a real problem with simple math, then there's no practical reason for it.

Five ribbons is simply for the sake of having five ribbons. In this case, the more doesn't tell you anything different.

I'd have to agree with this - you can't get a Wilson unless you had a Garber before it - so wearing the highest only there makes sense.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2010, 09:08:52 PMI'd have to agree with this - you can't get a Wilson unless you had a Garber before it - so wearing the highest only there makes sense.

Just so I am clear on where you're coming from: Are you advocating only wearing the highest ribbon? Once you get a new award, the old comes off, and the new one goes on?

If that's what you're saying (note the if), I don't see the point. That would still be a separate ribbon for each level, hence five separate ribbon purchases, and reconfiguring your ribbon rack when you get something new.

I think it would be easier for a single ribbon, just add devices, in the same vein as the Army NCOPD and the Air Force PME ribbons.

Quote from: spacecadet97 on January 02, 2010, 09:03:09 PM
Getting too what started this forum, I think that there should be a ribbon for Curry, then on for each of the milestone achievements.

I have been wanting to see this for a while.  I'll agree that ribbons are a good reinforcement-type tool, and something a Cadet can look forward to (especially those in the lower ranks), but one per rank is simply too many, and redundant.

One for the Curry (completing "basic training"), and each of the phases.  That way, it places more emphasis on completing the whole phases themselves, and not just the specific promotions.  I would include that all ribbons would be worn; not just the highest one earned.

YMMV

^ We need to award Cadets with as much as possible.  To them that is what the program is about until they get older and realize it was really about learning to be a leader.  Ribbons for Cadets should be left alone.  However, when Senior Member Joe Blow has is 14 CAP Ribbons and his 15 Air Force ribbons.......that is excessive.  Perhaps limiting military ribbons to one service, one commendation and one of personal choice would be helpful here.

Quote from: Spike on January 02, 2010, 11:16:41 PM
^ We need to award Cadets with as much as possible.

And that's where we differ, I guess.  While awards are good (milestone awards, commendations, service ribbons, etc), I feel that one ribbon per rank devalues them.  I just don't see the need to "double layer" the cadet program progression.  Either work for rank or ribbons.

On the note of "trying to award younger cadets as much as possible because that's what the program is about for them", There's no difference between a young cadet thinking, "Man... I can't wait 'till I earn alot of stripes like that Chief over there", and "Man, I can't wait 'till I earn a lot of ribbons like that Chief over there"... but why do we need both?

^ There are 13 total ribbons in the Cadet Program should the Cadet make it to Cadet Colonel.  ADD 1 more for the Mandatory Encampment and you get 14.

So, you get 5 rows of 3 ribbons or 4 rows of 4 ribbons.

The bling received with each achievement is very important, and National did conduct research about 10 years ago that said the same thing.

This is a non issue.  If you only award ribbons with milestones you get 5 ribbons   encampment.  Is that what you are suggesting??  2 Rows of Ribbons is not a motivator.  Cadets are motivated by the ribbons we currently have.  Period. 

In the 1970's the National CAC went to the National Board with the recommendayion that only milestone ribbons be worn. When a milestone was earned the non-milestone ribbons leading up to that be removed. This places more value to the ribbons the cadet can earn. The cadet still can wear any activity or encampment ribbon plus red service, and mission ribbons. This proposal from the cadets came up at least twice that I'm aware opf and shot down by the National Board.

Quote from: BillB on January 03, 2010, 07:11:13 PM
In the 1970's the National CAC went to the National Board with the recommendayion that only milestone ribbons be worn. When a milestone was earned the non-milestone ribbons leading up to that be removed. This places more value to the ribbons the cadet can earn. The cadet still can wear any activity or encampment ribbon plus red service, and mission ribbons. This proposal from the cadets came up at least twice that I'm aware opf and shot down by the National Board.

The last time, the NB not only shot it down, they also removed the "some" option for cadets wearing the service dress.

Quote from: Spike on January 03, 2010, 06:37:33 PM
^ There are 13 total ribbons in the Cadet Program should the Cadet make it to Cadet Colonel.  ADD 1 more for the Mandatory Encampment and you get 14.

So, you get 5 rows of 3 ribbons or 4 rows of 4 ribbons.

The bling received with each achievement is very important, and National did conduct research about 10 years ago that said the same thing.

This is a non issue.  If you only award ribbons with milestones you get 5 ribbons   encampment.  Is that what you are suggesting??  2 Rows of Ribbons is not a motivator.  Cadets are motivated by the ribbons we currently have.  Period.

You underestimate cadets. Ribbons don't motovate them, it's those stripes. They want to get more rank so they can the one to boss people around.