Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!

[Eclipse]

When most of my members get cranked up and head out, it won't be normal.

"most of the members" don't get cranked up - you're either in ES or you're not.  If not, you have no business "cranking up".
There is ZEE-RO reason for a CAP member to be "monitoring" another agency - either we're in the mission, in which case
we've had a comm briefing, or we aren't, in which case the radio is >>OFF<<.

And that's part of the problem, IMHO, we have all these radios and "communicators" many who have no ES quals -
they light up every night on a net to excitedly announce they have nothing to say, and occasionally they pass a week-old message
as if it were news, or more likely some set of digits to comply with a national mandate to pass a message, except they are confidence
checking equipment they can't actually use in an emergency.

Obviously if you're working on the tech rating, then you're active in a CAP activity - comms, otherwise why would you being working on the
comms specialty?  If you're not, and just a casual member who wants a pin, borrow a radio for a few check-ins and move on.

The problem here is that comm people tend to think the way they operate is the way everyone should operate.  A GTL doesn't need
256 freqs, he needs one that works when he hits the button.  Same for the aircraft.  Everything else is for the comm guys to config and brief.
The average member doesn't need that information, he's got other things to deal with.

Seriously, I've got an EFJ in the truck, and two HTs - one issued and one personal (a 16-channel Visar with 4 batts, a dual-desktop charger,
2 antennas and a surveillance earpiece $75), I've been on a fair number of missions and a few high-profile national ones, not to mention
encampments, airshows, and the like.  I've maybe used 4 different channels in 15 year.  4.

I honestly don't consider eBay a crapshoot, and on the rare occasion I've had an issue, there have been business-ways to
resolve them.  If eBay isn't the way, ask the wing DC.   Seriously, have you ever met a ham who didn't have "3 sources of good radios?"

This is how is usually goes.

FNG: I need to find out how to get a CAP radio.

CC: For what?

FNG: So I can communicate in an emergency.

CC: You're getting ahead of yourself - you have a lot of training to do before you can use a radio for CAP.

FNG: Whatever - I already own 12 radios, I'll just use one of those.

CC: You can't operate on CAP freqs without proper training and licensing, also, the radio has to be on this list.

FNG: What?  I've been a ham for 42 years.  Marconi was my cousin.  (checks list)  Everything on this list is either junk or too expensive.

CC: Well those are the rules.  Besides, in most cases if you really need a radio, CAP can issue you one for no cost.

FNG: What? And be responsible for a $1500 radio?  Forget that.  Besides, I need to monitor (insert 128 different agencies here).

FNG: I'll just solder a resister right here and then this radio can transmit on your precious frequencies.

CC: Why are you carrying a ham radio in a church basemen...whatever...you can't do that, it's against the regs and possibly the law.

FNG: You CAP guys have your comms all screwed up.

CC:  ...

[Storm Chaser]

Eclipse, are you a Wing DC? How come when someone with experience and knowledge disagrees with you, they're the ones who are always wrong? I consider you to be knowledgeable and experienced, but you don't know everything.

Maj Tomasone is a Wing DC, CUL evaluator and senior rated comm officer. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. Maybe things are different in your wing, but that's your wing. How does that make him wrong? He provided useful information for anyone wanting to buy this radio. If you're not one of them, then just move on.

[Eclipse]

I didn't say he was necessarily wrong, especially about his specific wing.

For better or worse I've spent a significant amount of time "unfunneling" equipment, licenses and the process,
and I already granted several times that's it's different in every wing, in fact I said, several times,
that ReCAP needs to to his wing DC and do what he says.  Neither Joe or I are from his wing.

As to the general need and attitude about radios, that I stand by - in the vast majority of cases,
if you actually have a need for a radio, yo have one issued or handed to you day-of, most of the
other use is "optional" or wholly unnecessary.  Which is fine, too, as long as the members understand the
actual landscape.

So, in summary...

I bow to the knowledge of Joe and Arajca and others here on comms stuff, with the
asterisk that I've had to fight these battles too.

Every wing does things different, so quoting a reg that says "every wing is different" and then
saying "there's nothing in writing", especially in this case where the wing in question's webpage
is 404, doesn't say much either way.

[JeffDG]

I didn't say he was necessarily wrong, especially about his specific wing.

For better or worse I've spent a significant amount of time "unfunneling" equipment, licenses and the process,
and I already granted several times that's it's different in every wing, in fact I said, several times,
that ReCAP needs to to his wing DC and do what he says.  Neither Joe or I are from his wing.

As to the general need and attitude about radios, that I stand by - in the vast majority of cases,
if you actually have a need for a radio, yo have one issued or handed to you day-of, most of the
other use is "optional" or wholly unnecessary.  Which is fine, too, as long as the members understand the
actual landscape.

So, in summary...

I bow to the knowledge of Joe and Arajca and others here on comms stuff, with the
asterisk that I've had to fight these battles too.

Every wing does things different, so quoting a reg that says "every wing is different" and then
saying "there's nothing in writing", especially in this case where the wing in question's webpage
is 404, doesn't say much either way.

Well, you did say that DCs need to approve radios, which multiple current and former DCs have said "No, that's false. Wings have no role in determining if a radio is OK to use or not."

And it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

[Eclipse]

And it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?

[JeffDG]

And it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?

No.

You're quite adamant that wings can't add hoops to jump through without going through proper channels, such as an approved supplement.

Here are the nhq approved supplements to 100-1
http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-100-1/

[Eclipse]

Yes I am, and yet that doesn't change the hoops, right?

I'd be happy to scan and email you the certification documents I have for my radio's compliance.

We have licensing officers who are also techs, at least one who used to work at batwing.
Every radio is checked for compliance - or at least they were up until the last time
it was an issue for me (which was a couple of years ago).

Every once in a while one comes out "not" and it either goes back to NHQ or isn't licensed.

I agree with your assertion about extra hoops, I fight them when I can, that doesn't always change things.

[JeffDG]

Yes I am, and yet that doesn't change the hoops, right?

I'd be happy to scan and email you the certification documents I have for my radio's compliance.

We have licensing officers who are also techs, at least one who used to work at batwing.
Every radio is checked for compliance - or at least they were up until the last time
it was an issue for me (which was a couple of years ago).

Every once in a while one comes out "not" and it either goes back to NHQ or isn't licensed.

I agree with your assertion about extra hoops, I fight them when I can, that doesn't always change things.

OK, and where, in the regulations or an approved supplement, does it give Wing the authority to deny use of a radio that is on the National approved list?

Sorry, but that's a made-up hoop that your wing is jumping people through.  I really don't care what their qualifications are.  If they want to test things and provide the results to National, fine by me, but National approves radios, not Wings.

[Eclipse]

Radio certification isn't a "made up hoop" - if the device is defective you're not supposed to use it just because
the model # is on the compliant list.

[JeffDG]

Radio certification isn't a "made up hoop" - if the device is defective you're not supposed to use it just because
the model # is on the compliant list.

OK, then where is wing radio certification authorized in the regs?

It isn't, hence it's a made-up hoop.  There is no requirement for pre-certification of any radio that NHQ has approved, before use.

[Eclipse]

OK.

[Fubar]

The problem here is that comm people tend to think the way they operate is the way everyone should operate.  A GTL doesn't need
256 freqs, he needs one that works when he hits the button.  Same for the aircraft.  Everything else is for the comm guys to config and brief.
The average member doesn't need that information, he's got other things to deal with.

I know we're bagging on comm people here, but I gotta tell ya, you've just described nearly every GTL I've run into. They consider themselves emergency first responders and can't understand why they don't have the police frequencies for every possible jurisdiction they might find themselves working in programmed into their radio.

[Eclipse]

Wish I could disagree. Not all, but plenty.

[pascocap2002]

I think Major Tomasone is doing CAP members a favor by posting how members can have an affordable CAP compliant radio.  Be happy that a member seen something good and wanted to share it. this can save a person a lot of money and also get them more involved in CAP communications and also serve quite beneficial in CAP Emergency Services and if the person who buys the radio is also a HAM, then it serves more than just a CAP investment.

We all pay a lot of money to be a volunteer with different organisations like CAP so its always a good thing when someone shows us an affordable way to get more involved in something that helps "us" reach our mission.

[brent.teal]

+1

[skymaster]

And it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?

No.

You're quite adamant that wings can't add hoops to jump through without going through proper channels, such as an approved supplement.

Here are the nhq approved supplements to 100-1
http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-100-1/

Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.

[JeffDG]

Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.

Just a minor quibble...Supplements to CAPR 100-1 have to be approved not only by NHQ, but also by CAP-USAF, so they have seen it, and presumably missed the typo the same way as everyone else.

As an aside, did the misspelling of Chaplain cause you to in any way misinterpret the meaning or intent of the supplement?  The purpose of language is communication of ideas and intentions.  A simple typo that does not change or detract from the message to be conveyed, is of no real consequence.

[a2capt]

..and furthermore, it may have been correct at all phases of the vetting process and someone messed it up right at the point of publishing it. [Mess] happens. Lets see if it's there when the next revision comes out

[skymaster]

Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.

Just a minor quibble...Supplements to CAPR 100-1 have to be approved not only by NHQ, but also by CAP-USAF, so they have seen it, and presumably missed the typo the same way as everyone else.

As an aside, did the misspelling of Chaplain cause you to in any way misinterpret the meaning or intent of the supplement?  The purpose of language is communication of ideas and intentions.  A simple typo that does not change or detract from the message to be conveyed, is of no real consequence.

I hope that I do not come across as pedantic, but I come from a military, legal, and IT background, where we were taught literally from "Day 1" that correct spelling and syntax is very important. In Criminal Justice and pre-law classes, we were taught that, in the legal world, a perpetrator's guilt or innocence will be based on the LETTER of the law, not the intent. In the military, we were taught that lack of attention to detail WAS absolutely a life-and-death matter, and that the number one non-combat cause of line-of-duty deaths was directly traceable to lack of attention to detail. Furthermore, in IT classes, we were taught that one misspelling in a line of code can mean the difference between your aircraft's electronic fly-by-wire system maintaining a proper course, or crashing a multimillion dollar aircraft with the loss of all souls on board. I can tell you for a fact that, if this document came across my desk in the chain of command, that it would be sent back for correction before I would sign off on it. We claim to be a professional group performing vital missions; maybe we could take the extra 15 minutes to review a document before submitting it up the chain, as part of that "professional" action.

[ee1993]

I have bee buying EFJ radios on EBay, cleaning them up and bench checking them, then making them available to members at my cost.  I currently have a range of 5100 handhelds including some version 4 and also a number of 5317 base/mobiles with KPP enabled ($100 ea).  Let me know if you are interested in obtaining one.

Bob Morris
Communications Officer
MER-NC-082

morrisnc7@gmail.com