Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!

[ReCAP]

The radio needs to be certified licensed for use on CAP frequencies.

Programming the channels isn't enough, so whether you have that info or not, it's going to have to be blessed
by a Wing Licensing officer at some point, regardless.

It's the very radio we're discussing in this thread, and so far, it still appears on the compliant list here:
https://comm.capnhq.gov/equipment/vhf_summary.cfm

From CAPR100-1 6-1:
b. Radio equipment used by CAP on federal frequencies must comply with all standards of the NTIA. Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. CAP maintains a list of radio equipment evaluated as compliant. This list can be found via eServices.

Doesn't say anything about a "Wing Licensing officer".  Ours is out on a snipe hunt right now anyway. 

[Eclipse]

Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.

The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.

[ReCAP]

Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.
The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.

Ok. 
Where in the regs can I read about that? 

[ReCAP]

P.S.

The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is,

No, the reg says
"Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. "

[Eclipse]

Have you completed ICUT?  Most of these questions are handled during those sessions.

Each wing does their licensing and radio certification a bit differently.

CAPR 100-1 Page 17:
5-3. Authorization. Authorization of stations consists of assigning a CAP tactical call sign to a
CAP member, vehicle, facility or specific radio. Members who have completed ICUT training
may apply for a CAP tactical call sign using procedures specified by the wing. Wing policy may
require assignment or availability of a radio in order to be eligible for a tactical call sign, but will
not require further training or a standard higher than ICUT accomplishment.

[ReCAP]

Curiouser and curiouser.  What you're saying is that there is apparently no written policy? 

I do have in my hand a wing document that assigns blocks of call signs plus administrative call signs to each group and squadron. 

I've completed ICUT.  Neither the online training or the tasks evaluated and signed off by the in-person evaluator addressed this issue. 

I get the idea that my wing doesn't actually use radio communication.  In fact, the evaluator mentioned that in order so satisfy the Comm Technician rating requirement to participate in a Wing communication exercise, he had to organize and run his own exercise.  Great way to jump in an learn the ropes, at least. 

I was also told we have a grand total three (3) portable radios in the entire wing. We have no available HF radios... 

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a gripe session.   

[Eclipse]

Curiouser and curiouser.  What you're saying is that there is apparently no written policy?

No, what I'm saying is that every wing is different, and based generally on the needs and scope of the
networks in a given wing.  My wing has gobs of radios, and used to suffer from the same funnel of
only a couple certification people.   We fixed that a number of years ago and it's been a non-issue since.

The Wing DC is the person responsible for this and he's the one you need to discuss this with.
There's no end-around or shortcut.  At some point he's going to have to authorize any equipment
you intend to use on CAP freqs, whatever the wing's procedure may be.

I do have in my hand a wing document that assigns blocks of call signs plus administrative call signs to each group and squadron.

Depending on what you are looking at, that may be a generic assignment table by function (i.e. the Wing CC is XXX01, VC XXX02, etc),
but regardless, that's not a menu, the call sign still has to be assigned to you. Some wings license stations, some wings license radios.
You have to ascertain how your wing handles it.

I get the idea that my wing doesn't actually use radio communication.  In fact, the evaluator mentioned that in order so satisfy the Comm Technician rating requirement to participate in a Wing communication exercise, he had to organize and run his own exercise.

This is typical.  CAP radios aren't used to pass general message traffic or CAP news anymore.  They re used primarily for ES and larger-scale activities
like encampments and airshows, etc.  Those activities may not meet the goals of a comm exercises for the purpose of the tech rating, but regardless,
if he's the Wing DC, then he's the one who's supposed to be scheduling Comm exercises.

Other then that, what you have are nightly nets that echo "no traffic, over".

I was also told we have a grand total three (3) portable radios in the entire wing. We have no available HF radios... 

Possible if its a small wing and there's not much ES activity.  HTs are primarily assigned to ground teams via the TOA,
and if your wing doesn't have many, or doesn't have many interested in a radio, then they may not have much.

What was your expectation of use?

[a2capt]

When I get another radio, one that is on that list, I don't have to apply to CAWG to use it. I already have a call sign, I'm using approve equipment, properly programmed. Done.

[SarDragon]

Possible if its a small wing and there's not much ES activity.  HTs are primarily assigned to ground teams via the TOA,
and if your wing doesn't have many, or doesn't have many interested in a radio, then they may not have much.

New jersey is not a small wing, in terms of members and assets.

[JoeTomasone]

Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.

The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.

Compliance is determined by presence on the NTCs list.  Trust me when I tell you that no DC has the time, equipment, and, in many cases, expertise to test equipment for NTIA compliance.  That requires a full-on lab.

[JoeTomasone]

There were no lab tests conducted by CAP on the Wouxun.   There is suspicion that the receiver test figures were fudged based on observations by some members that the receiver wasn't showing the proper amount of rejection that it should be; and that if that figure cannot be trusted, can the rest of it be?

I have found two lab reports - admittedly both from China - that certify the radio as meeting Part 90 standards; but to the best I can determine, Part 90 does not address RECEIVE specs, just transmit. 

I did a rather unscientific test here.  I set up the Wouxun and an EFJ portable next to each other and tuned to CC1.   I then used another transmitter to transmit on the center frequency of CC1 and then deviated 5kc off.  The EFJ did not respond.   The Wouxun received the signal 10kc off center in both directions.   That would seem to lend credence to the argument that it's adjacent channel selectivity is not what it should be, but then the specs for the EFJ are 15db higher than the Wouxun.   I'm not qualified to make any sort of determination as to whether a 15db difference should lead to a 10kc greater rejection - but as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter much.    I can deal with the ramifications of the miniscule chance that the few times a year that this radio will be pressed into service that there won't be too many people transmitting 5-10kc off and nearby enough to overload the receiver.

[ReCAP]

Sorry for going off topic - I'll table my gripes for now because Joe brings up some interesting points. 

I think everyone agrees that the transmit specs are critical. 

There are two schools of though on the recieve performance:
1. It's better than nothing - I can't recieve anything at all with a $1500 radio I didn't buy. 
2. Substandard is worse than nothing because I will fail when I really need it. 

So, I wouldn't advocate CAP replacing the EFJ's with Wouxuns, but if I'm buying a HT for HAM use and it also might be usable for CAP, why put up road blocks?   

[Eclipse]

So, I wouldn't advocate CAP replacing the EFJ's with Wouxuns, but if I'm buying a HT for HAM use and it also might be usable for CAP, why put up road blocks?

Because CAP isn't concerned with "ham use", it is only concerned with CAP use, and there are plenty of alternatives for
members who need radios that cost far less then $1500.

Not to mention the fact that in many cases, if you haven't been issued a radio, either permanently or day-of, you probably don't need one.

It's pretty easy to find HT-1000's these days for $100ish.  That's all the average CAP member needs for CAP use.

[a2capt]

..and if the radio is receiving a little extra, is that ultimately going to hamper the mission?

If, after all- the Part 90 test covers only transmit.

The longer it's on the list, the harder it's going to be to remove it, without a significant amount of white noise from the field.

[JoeTomasone]

Not to mention the fact that in many cases, if you haven't been issued a radio, either permanently or day-of, you probably don't need one.

It's pretty easy to find HT-1000's these days for $100ish.  That's all the average CAP member needs for CAP use.

..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

HT-1000's may be obtainable, but there are several advantages to going with a Wouxun instead:

1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

[a2capt]

9. It's Cheap, you said.

[JeffDG]

I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

Yes, Wing DCs assign, or cause to be assigned (I left it to Group Comm Officers for the most part when I was a DC), individual or unit AFVCS Call Signs, but these go to people or organizations, not individual radio units.

If your squadron has a call sign, you can use that (with the concurrence of the Squadron Commander of course).  Or you can request an individual call sign to use.

[JoeTomasone]

I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.

[Eclipse]

..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

If you are active in using the radios in actual activities, you will get the reps you need, if you aren't, you won't need the reps.
"No traffic, over" will not prepare you to use a radio.  And if reps are what is needed, you can practice without having an actual radio.

1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

All this is very nice, much of it irrelevant to normal CAP operations.

I've never had any issue with eBay, have found plenty of inexpensive and good quality accessories for the EFJs online,
but my main point in this case was that perfectly serviceable radios can be obtained for CAP use under $100 without trying too hard.

The other point was that if you aren't involved in ES or a few larger-scale activities, then there' not much point to having a CAP radio,
especially if you have to buy it yourself.  The average member has no use for mutual aid / liaison, or especially ham frequencies.
No agency s coming up to a random member and asking them to use their freqs, nor should we be doing that.

I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.

There's nothing in the base regs, but as is indicated there, it's up to the local wing.  Some don't care, others literally
certify every radio on a bench.  The important thing is that you have to do whatever your wing DC says.

[JoeTomasone]

..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

If you are active in using the radios in actual activities, you will get the reps you need, if you aren't, you won't need the reps.
"No traffic, over" will not prepare you to use a radio.  And if reps are what is needed, you can practice without having an actual radio.

OK, you take ICUT, get your MRO, and 18 months passes without anything going on that requires you to use a radio.

Now there's a mission.   You are the MRO.   You don't recall the difference between "wilco" and "roger".   How effective will you be?

Yes, you could tabletop this, but it doesn't stick between the ears as well IMHO.

1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

All this is very nice, much of it irrelevant to normal CAP operations.

NORMAL operations, perhaps.   When most of my members get cranked up and head out, it won't be normal.   I tend to think of widespread power outages after a hurricane, with perhaps the local sheriff telling us that they are on frequency x.xxx in case we care to monitor them.  (Note I didn't say "transmit", but if we had an urgent need and the NOC approved it, you're dead in the water with an EFJ unless you have programming gear with you.. And you won't.).   

Of course, cheaper accessories means better options for normal operations as well.   $30 spare batteries, the ability to monitor NOAA Weather Radio, and not having to remember which unmarked channel is the repeater two counties over means a lot to me in normal operations.

I've never had any issue with eBay, have found plenty of inexpensive and good quality accessories for the EFJs online,
but my main point in this case was that perfectly serviceable radios can be obtained for CAP use under $100 without trying too hard.

Perhaps, but you must admit that it's a crapshoot, basically.   

The other point was that if you aren't involved in ES or a few larger-scale activities, then there' not much point to having a CAP radio,
especially if you have to buy it yourself.  The average member has no use for mutual aid / liaison, or especially ham frequencies.
No agency s coming up to a random member and asking them to use their freqs, nor should we be doing that.

Sure there is - you want to check in to nets to satisfy the requirements for the Tech Comm rating.   You want to communicate at any event - small or large.   

We have several non-CAP frequencies in our radios to support local USAF and State missions.   Who's to say that you won't be involved with them? 

You'd want ham frequencies if you're a ham.  Why have multiple radios, one for CAP use and one for HAM use?   I can tell you right now that an HT-1000 won't cut it for ham use if you do much more than check in to the local repeater.   You'll need to be frequency-agile.

No, an agency won't come up to a random member, but they might approach the CUL. 

I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.

There's nothing in the base regs, but as is indicated there, it's up to the local wing.  Some don't care, others literally
certify every radio on a bench.  The important thing is that you have to do whatever your wing DC says.
[/quote]

I see nothing indicating that the DC is even responsible for assuring compliance.  It's the member's responsibility.   As for issuing a callsign:

6-3. User and Radio Authorization. Completion of ICUT, as recorded in eServices, constitutes authorization for unsupervised operation on CAP frequencies. Wings, regions and National Headquarters may use discretion in assigning call signs to members, vehicles or physical locations that do not have radios assigned.