Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!

Started by JoeTomasone, April 01, 2013, 02:05:25 PM

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Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Replied, and also sent the spreadsheet to the CAP-DC mailing list too...

kd8gua

Talk about lightening the belt load... these radios are not only tiny, but dual band, which means they actually cover CAP, ISR, and FRS. Yes, if you want to stay within the confines of regulations, you wouldn't transmit on FRS or ISR, but in reality, there are plenty of occasions where activities (Airshows, Encampments, etc) where both ISR and VHF are used, making some staff members carry multiple radios. That's all taken care of with this!
Capt Brad Thomas
Communications Officer
Columbus Composite Squadron

Assistant Cadet Programs Activities Officer
Ohio Wing HQ

SarDragon

#23
According to what I've read, and been told, only radios specifically certified for ISR and FRS can be used on those bands. The rules are pretty specific about that.

FCC guidance on FRS and GMRS:

If you operate a device that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS you are not required to have a license. FRS devices have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a device under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS devices generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas.

MURS guidance:

You can operate a MURS device in any place where the FCC regulates radio communications. A MURS device must be certified by the FCC. A certified MURS device has an identifying label placed on it by the manufacturer. No MURS unit, under any condition of modulation, shall exceed 2 Watts transmitter power output.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

JeffDG

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Don't quote me on this, but if you're operating on FCC frequencies, you really need to follow FCC rules.  ISRs operate on federal government frequencies, while FRS is a public piece of spectrum.  CAPR 100-1 forbids use of GMRS at all.

wuzafuzz

#26
The approved Wouxon's will be great radios for a lot of members. There are some limitations since they don't do digital or encryption, but they will work for a lot of our needs.

The reality is: 

  • If you need or want to work ISR and VHF at the same time you will still need to have two radios available.
  • The advertised transmit range doesn't include ISR freqs. That's all I'm going to say about that.
  • The only way these radios will be used "like ISRs" is if they are used on CAP simplex in lieu of ISRs.
  • As SarDragon pointed out, the Wouxon radios simply aren't legal on FRS or MURS.  NTIA doesn't regulate those frequencies, FCC does.
  • CAPR 100-1 already defines acceptable ISRs.  Wouxon radios do not fit the definition.

Part of the beauty of these dual-band radios is they cover some UHF services like business bands, GMRS, and amateur.  Of course none of those are permitted for CAP use, but properly licensed members can use one radio for CAP and non-CAP needs.  There is even some potential for liaison use on UHF interoperability frequencies.

So, these are good little radios.  But don't give up your ISRs just yet.

"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

wuzafuzz

CAPR 100-1. Para 9-11 states, in part:
"...Only radios specifically manufactured for the ISR service (currently available only from ICOM) are authorized and they will not be modified in any way, including the addition of external antennas or amplifiers..."
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

SarDragon

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer

The FCC is a subset of the NTIA, to whom has been ceded all communications affairs not involving government entities. This may be over simplified, but that generally how it functions. There is very little, if any overlap in frequency usage - FCC has their bucketful, and NTIA has theirs. FRS, GMRS, and MURS belong to the FCC; ISR belongs to the government/NTIA.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

I was aware of there being separate frequencies and entities.

At the same time I asked in case there had been made some changes. We all know that technology changes almost from day to day, so when someone-the OP-brought news of these new radios, just wanted to double-check whether there had been a change in that aspect as well.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

SarDragon

According to what I just read on the FCC site, no.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

JoeTomasone

Quote from: JeffDG on April 03, 2013, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Don't quote me on this, but if you're operating on FCC frequencies, you really need to follow FCC rules.  ISRs operate on federal government frequencies, while FRS is a public piece of spectrum.  CAPR 100-1 forbids use of GMRS at all.


The radios have been FCC type accepted for Part 90 operations.   NTIA does things a different way, by publishing guidelines for the transmitter/receiver specifications (the "redbook").   The sticky part for CAP is that we are the only agency that actually mandates compliance; NTIA only enforces the redbook in the case of interference.   Interestingly, for VHF narrowband, NTIA exempts radios used for "Military tactical and training purposes" from their standard...



JoeTomasone

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 08:32:45 PM
I was aware of there being separate frequencies and entities.

At the same time I asked in case there had been made some changes. We all know that technology changes almost from day to day, so when someone-the OP-brought news of these new radios, just wanted to double-check whether there had been a change in that aspect as well.

Flyer

No, there's no change.  The only news is that we have an option for a low-cost VHF portable that doesn't support P25 or encryption, which, quite frankly, I don't expect to be a problem for some time to come.


wuzafuzz

"Programming is Successed." :-)

Now that I have one of these radios in my paws, I learned a few things:

The free programming software is really basic and is kind of weird.  However, it gets the job done.  Plus it works with the RT systems cable I bought for my ham radio (UV3D).

Some of the options for button programming will do more harm than good for the "non-technical user."  Those people probably never want to see VFO mode, or be faced with the choice of which PL tone to use.  Some other features, like SOS mode, have little to no value I can see. On the flip side, that silly "flashlight"...i honestly laughed when i first saw it...turns out to be surprisingly useful.

All the VHF analog CAP stuff programs up just fine.

Speaker audio is nice and loud without sounding distorted.

Scanning is slow enough i wont bother using it. But...thanks to dual channel selectors I like being able to monitor my local repeater and CAPGUARD at the same time. I wish the display would give a hint as to which channel is active, but that's a minor nit.

Enter Geek Territory
The free software and the RT Systems software for a UV3D (ham radio version) is not compatible with the compliant UV3X and the UV6X. Files from those radios don't work with the X series software either.

If you are licensed for GMRS: the X radio will not TX wideband on GMRS freqs. Both the software and menu programming reject wideband, probably thanks to a firmware rule for that frequency range.  Of course that's not an issue for CAP use, but member owned radios often serve more than one purpose.  Especially with comm geeks like me.
Exit Geek Territory

Overall, a nice, small, functional radio.  When properly configured it will serve the average CAP user well.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

SarDragon

Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

wuzafuzz

Quote from: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
73 de N6RFI
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

Garibaldi

Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 09, 2013, 12:55:11 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
73 de N6RFI

My sister just passed her Tech, now she is rarin' to get her general and is dragging her with me. My whole family are now Hams.

73, KD5PHZ
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

johnnyb47

We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.
Capt
Information Technology Officer
Communications Officer


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SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Woodsy

Quote from: johnnyb47 on April 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.

I saw that.  I wonder why it was rejected?  Taking a look at the specs, it seems to meet the standards, and just about identical to the wouxum.  The only thing I can think of is that it is 4 watts when most portables are 5. 

Maybe they just can't get over the $45 factor...  Could it be that they don't want everyone and their brother having a radio with CAP freq's?