CAP SM Glider Training

[SAR-EMT1]

I know this program came out a while back, but I didnt know how it has progressed.
I also had a question:
looking at the reg I saw that SMs may now recieve glider training, HOWEVER, the reg also states that SMs will not recieve primary instruction. SO... my question is this: are the glider flights only availible to those SMs who already have a set of Pilots Wings? (for Power, or Balloon)
OR can a SM with no flight training whatsoever participate and get his PPG / Glider Wings?

[CadetProgramGuy]

must be a pilot first.  then 2 years of service.  I would like to reference 60-1, but not sure.

[BlueLakes1]

must be a pilot first.  then 2 years of service.  I would like to reference 60-1, but not sure.

Actually, non-pilot SM's can do primary glider instruction in CAP gliders, and there is no membership time requirement.

2-4. Prohibited uses of CAP aircraft. The following uses of CAP aircraft are prohibited:

j. Instruction of senior member student pilots (unless specifically authorized by the Executive Director.)(Training for a glider rating is permitted).

3-6. CAP Pilot flight training leading to an Additional Endorsement, Airman Rating, or Certificate. Senior and cadet members may receive instruction in CAP aircraft from CAP instructors as follows:

c. CAP senior members are authorized flight training in gliders by CAP CFIGs leading to a glider rating. This training must be approved in writing by the wing commander. This approval does not allow instruction of senior member student pilots in powered aircraft. (Use mission symbol C17.)

e. Non-pilot CAP senior member airplane flight training is not authorized unless requested in writing by the wing commander and approved by the region commander and the Executive Director.

So, a couple points. First, remember that a certificated pilot who is training for an additional rating in another category or class (or both) of aircraft is not, by definition, a "student pilot"; therefore, a rated CAP pilot (airplane) who is training for a glider rating isn't a student pilot to begin with. Notice that para 2-4 j, which does refer to student pilots, grants allowance for a senior member student pilot to train in gliders without approval of the Executive Director, et al. Also notice that para 3-6 c only says "senior members" are authorized glider training, without reference to the member's current airman status, and that both 3-6 c and e disallow senior member, student pilot, airplane flight training without proper approval.

So, even if you're not already a rated pilot, you're OK to train for gliders. Also, there is no 2 year service requirement anywhere in 60-1. CAP Pilots who are not rated Mission Pilots must have 1 year service and written approval from the Wing CC before they can train for an additional rating; Mission Pilots are allowed the training without obtaining written approval, and do not have a minimum membership time before training (reference para 3-6 a and b). Since glider training is specifically covered in 3-6 c without referencing a membership time requirement, there isn't one, a member only needs to obtain the written approval to train.

[BlueLakes1]

Oops, wrong button. My bad.

[mdickinson]

Actually, non-pilot SM's can do primary glider instruction in CAP gliders

That might have been the intent of those writing the regulation, but after reading the reg, my opinion is the opposite. The regulation appears to allow SMs to train for a glider rating (i.e. an add-on rating to a pilot certificate), but nowhere does it say that senior member student pilots can train for their private pilot certificate.

2-4. Prohibited uses of CAP aircraft. The following uses of CAP aircraft are prohibited:
Instruction of senior member student pilots (unless specifically authorized by the Executive Director.)(Training for a glider rating is permitted).

This allows training for a glider rating. It does not specifically allow primary instruction (training towards a private pilot certificate).

It also specifically prohibits SM student pilots. Someone who has not yet earned a private pilot certificate is a student pilot. As I read it, that prohibits SM primary instruction in gliders, but allows for SM pilots to train for an add-on glider rating.

3-6. CAP Pilot flight training leading to an Additional Endorsement, Airman Rating, or Certificate. Senior and cadet members may receive instruction in CAP aircraft from CAP instructors as follows:

c. CAP senior members are authorized flight training in gliders by CAP CFIGs leading to a glider rating. This training must be approved in writing by the wing commander. This approval does not allow instruction of senior member student pilots in powered aircraft. (emphasis mine)

e. Non-pilot CAP senior member airplane flight training is not authorized unless requested in writing by the wing commander and approved by the region commander and the Executive Director.

remember that a certificated pilot who is training for an additional rating [...] is not, by definition, a "student pilot"; therefore, a rated CAP pilot (airplane) who is training for a glider rating isn't a student pilot to begin with.

Agree.

Notice that para 2-4 j, which does refer to student pilots, grants allowance for a senior member student pilot to train in gliders without approval of the Executive Director

Disagree. Maybe it was intended to say that, but it doesn't. It prohibits primary instruction and goes on to say seniors can train in gliders... but it never gets specific about whether it is permitting seniors to do ab initio training in gliders, or whether that parenthetical comment is just meant to allow SMs to train for an add-on rating in gliders. Based on the reference in 3-6.e., it's only allowing for a glider rating.

Also notice that para 3-6 c only says "senior members" are authorized glider training, without reference to the member's current airman status,

(Airman status? Wazzat?)

That paragraph permits training leading to a glider rating. There is no mention of ab initio training, which would lead to a private pilot certificate.

If they had meant to allow primary training in gliders, why would they have inserted the word "rating"? Ab initio training is training towards a pilot certificate, not training towards a rating.

So, even if you're not already a rated pilot, you're OK to train for gliders.

Maybe. It would be neat (though sort of pointless) if SMs were permitted to do primary training in CAP gliders... but I just don't see it being allowed by CAPR 60-1 as it currently stands.

The regulation is written in such a vague and confusing manner that it leaves questions like this one, which should be very simple to answer, open to interpretation. Here we have a case where two experienced check pilots both read the same words and came up with opposite answers.

So... does anyone reading this know the people who write 60-1? Perhaps you could forward this to them as an example of what needs fixing.

[jb512]

And on that note, someone needs to start campaigning for initial pilot training in our aircraft.  Yes, yes, I know this has been discussed before, but make some prerequisites and get it started already.  Even if you have to say (for example), senior rated MO with a minimum of 2 years of service with a senior rating in a specialty track (to show that we got our money's worth), with a recommendation letter from a CFI...

Make it tough, but make it possible.

[DrJbdm]

There is a lot of support within CAP for making it possible for members to receive primary flight training in a CAP aircraft with CAP instructor pilots. However, CAP also has a non competition clause in that they will not allow primary flight training if there is a flight school that can service that need. CAP has this idea that by doing this they are being a good neighbor and are not stealing food out of the flight schools mouth.

  I personally believe they should allow it, this way we can train our pilots to our standards. it makes for a better trained pilot when all they know is Cap's way of flying. But I fear that may never become authorized, although I really hope it is. Hey what a great recruiting/retention tool!

[mikeylikey]

^ So if there is a flight school within 50 miles.....no go on receiving CAP flights?

We should be training our Officers in Our planes. Does not seem right not to.

[arajca]

There is a lot of support within CAP for making it possible for members to receive primary flight training in a CAP aircraft with CAP instructor pilots. However, CAP also has a non competition clause in that they will not allow primary flight training if there is a flight school that can service that need. CAP has this idea that by doing this they are being a good neighbor and are not stealing food out of the flight schools mouth.

  I personally believe they should allow it, this way we can train our pilots to our standards. it makes for a better trained pilot when all they know is Cap's way of flying. But I fear that may never become authorized, although I really hope it is. Hey what a great recruiting/retention tool!

As I understand it, it is not CAP playing nice, it is the FAA saying "Thou Shalt Not..." if you want to keep your exemptions like allowing non-commercial pilots to accept reimbursement for CAP flights.

[SJFedor]

There is a lot of support within CAP for making it possible for members to receive primary flight training in a CAP aircraft with CAP instructor pilots. However, CAP also has a non competition clause in that they will not allow primary flight training if there is a flight school that can service that need. CAP has this idea that by doing this they are being a good neighbor and are not stealing food out of the flight schools mouth.

  I personally believe they should allow it, this way we can train our pilots to our standards. it makes for a better trained pilot when all they know is Cap's way of flying. But I fear that may never become authorized, although I really hope it is. Hey what a great recruiting/retention tool!

Yeah, imagine the massive influx of people who want to do cheap flight training, and then hit the bricks once they've got their certificate. It's not just that it would take business away from FBO's, it would make CAP into a flight school, and I guarantee we might keep 30-40% of the people we train, if that.

Not to mention, the CAP CFIs that donate their time are gonna start backing away from giving instruction pretty quickly. Imagine having a ton of students coming at you for flight instruction, yet not getting a dime for it.

I can POSSIBLY see something like allowing each wing to select 3 SMs to do flight training per year. Said members must have completed Level III with 3 years in service (I call it the rule of 3's!) Giving incentive, and making it competitive to those who contribute, and not just handing it to every schmo off the street with a pulse and a checkbook.

Plus, imagine how much the insurance for the aircraft would jump if they knew we were doing large scale primary flight training. Not fun at all....

[BlueLakes1]

Two thoughts....

First, in regards to non-pilot SM's getting glider training in CAP gliders...I took the liberty of dropping a very specific question to the CAP Knowledgebase. Here ya go...

Customer (Matt Creed) 12/17/2007 10:59 AM 
I know that this has been touched on, but for further clarification, can a Senior Member, who does not hold any FAA or CAP rating as a pilot, receive instruction for a Private Pilot Glider rating from CAP GFI-Gs in CAP gliders?

Response (KB Manager) 12/21/2007 07:29 AM 
Yes, CAPR 60-1, paragraph 2-4j and 3-6c.  Current pilot status is not a consideration.


Pete Kalisky/DOV
National Administrative Staff
pkalisky@capnhq.gov
Toll Free:  888.211.1812 ext. 331
Phone:  334.953.7299 ext. 331
DSN:  493.7299 ext. 331
Fax: 800.555.7902 (DSN 493.5944)

I think that fairly well settles the debate.

Now, on to the next topic...I don't agree for a minute with allowing routine training of SMs in powered aircraft. I also fear that we'd become a cheap alternative to local schools. I don't like the flying club mentality that seems to persist in some areas, and I fear that opening the doors to all comers would help continue those attitudes.

Now, I'd have no beef with allowing someone who's been in for 3 or 4 years, rated observer, active member, etc. come in and train, because we can reasonably expect that person's not just in it for a cheap pilot certificate.

[jb512]

I agree.  That would also give us an angle of having some kinds of standards, even if for that percentage of people.  You could require qualified applicants to submit a packet and fill a certain number of slots per year... Sound familiar (RM)?

That way you'd have pilots who have already been in CAP for 2 or 3 years, have observer ratings with hours in our aircraft, ES experience, recommendation letters, etc...

[star1151]

And on that note, someone needs to start campaigning for initial pilot training in our aircraft.  Yes, yes, I know this has been discussed before, but make some prerequisites and get it started already.  Even if you have to say (for example), senior rated MO with a minimum of 2 years of service with a senior rating in a specialty track (to show that we got our money's worth), with a recommendation letter from a CFI...

Aren't there already enough pilots in CAP already?  As a CFI, I'd love to have the opportunity to instruct (right now there's too many CFI's and not enough students...on any level), but I wouldn't want it as a full time job.  Why, when I could do it and get paid somewhere else?

And make no mistake, pilot training IS expensive enough that people would stick in CAP for a few years and bail, just to get it cheaply.

[BlueLakes1]

Aren't there already enough pilots in CAP already?  As a CFI, I'd love to have the opportunity to instruct (right now there's too many CFI's and not enough students...on any level), but I wouldn't want it as a full time job.  Why, when I could do it and get paid somewhere else?

When dealing with a volunteer organization, can there ever be "enough", or "too many"? I'd prefer it if we had more mission pilots than we do, but I don't think we can ever have enough pilots.

It's been my experience that very few CAP CFIs, at least locally, give flight instruction as a source of income outside of CAP. That being said, it can be quite difficult to find CAP CFIs who are willing to give up the amount of time necessary to train a new student from the ground up. That's an observation, not a criticism. It takes an awful lot of time to train someone for their PPL.

And make no mistake, pilot training IS expensive enough that people would stick in CAP for a few years and bail, just to get it cheaply.

To be frank, if it were to be done properly, where someone were to have 3 or 4 years of active membership, aircrew ratings, and the approval of commanders from squadron up before they could be authorized to train for a PPL, then I think it's a risk worth taking. It's not like you'd be able to just join up and pay dues, you'd have to be a productive member to be approved.

[jb512]

And on that note, someone needs to start campaigning for initial pilot training in our aircraft.  Yes, yes, I know this has been discussed before, but make some prerequisites and get it started already.  Even if you have to say (for example), senior rated MO with a minimum of 2 years of service with a senior rating in a specialty track (to show that we got our money's worth), with a recommendation letter from a CFI...

Aren't there already enough pilots in CAP already?  As a CFI, I'd love to have the opportunity to instruct (right now there's too many CFI's and not enough students...on any level), but I wouldn't want it as a full time job.  Why, when I could do it and get paid somewhere else?

And make no mistake, pilot training IS expensive enough that people would stick in CAP for a few years and bail, just to get it cheaply.

Nothing wrong with that.  Many people receive a lot of military training and bail after their enlistment or service is up.  As long as we set standards to get our "money's worth", we should be able to offer it at some point.

[RiverAux]

 I think this was thoroughly discussed and shot down during one (or several) of the high brass meetings this year. 

[jb512]

I'm not surprised.  We're just talking about our wish list I guess...

[SAR-EMT1]

So to recap, the basic understanding is that to do this you must be a pilot already?

[cnitas]

Two thoughts....

First, in regards to non-pilot SM's getting glider training in CAP gliders...I took the liberty of dropping a very specific question to the CAP Knowledgebase. Here ya go...

Customer (Matt Creed) 12/17/2007 10:59 AM 
I know that this has been touched on, but for further clarification, can a Senior Member, who does not hold any FAA or CAP rating as a pilot, receive instruction for a Private Pilot Glider rating from CAP GFI-Gs in CAP gliders?

Response (KB Manager) 12/21/2007 07:29 AM 
Yes, CAPR 60-1, paragraph 2-4j and 3-6c.  Current pilot status is not a consideration.


Pete Kalisky/DOV
National Administrative Staff
pkalisky@capnhq.gov
Toll Free:  888.211.1812 ext. 331
Phone:  334.953.7299 ext. 331
DSN:  493.7299 ext. 331
Fax: 800.555.7902 (DSN 493.5944)

I think that fairly well settles the debate.

Now, on to the next topic...I don't agree for a minute with allowing routine training of SMs in powered aircraft. I also fear that we'd become a cheap alternative to local schools. I don't like the flying club mentality that seems to persist in some areas, and I fear that opening the doors to all comers would help continue those attitudes.

Now, I'd have no beef with allowing someone who's been in for 3 or 4 years, rated observer, active member, etc. come in and train, because we can reasonably expect that person's not just in it for a cheap pilot certificate.

[star1151]

That being said, it can be quite difficult to find CAP CFIs who are willing to give up the amount of time necessary to train a new student from the ground up. That's an observation, not a criticism. It takes an awful lot of time to train someone for their PPL.

Sad...that's definitely something I'd be interested in.

Nothing wrong with that.  Many people receive a lot of military training and bail after their enlistment or service is up.

True.  But CAP isn't exactly something you bail on when your time is up.  Is it?