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Encampment stories

Started by Kal, March 28, 2008, 12:24:31 AM

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Mavvrikk

IMHO, with all due respect, it isn't hazing, it's discipline, when I'm about to forget to check for everything the thing that pops onto my mind is "hey, I gotta make sure I got everything I need before I leave" I did that for the rest of the week after that, it didn't instill fear, I just knew that I needed to remember things for a reason. My dad yells at me, and I used to receive spankings when I did something wrong, and it was all for the better, I would be nowhere near what I am today of it wouldn't of been for him disciplining me. I would be a total wild child, cause I was not an easy one to break.

Mavvrikk

If it happened to me and I have no problem with it, then it's not hazing. It didn't screw me up mentally or anything.

C/Haughey

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 01:55:10 PM
If it happened to me and I have no problem with it, then it's not hazing. It didn't screw me up mentally or anything.

You can't speak for every other cadet in your flight/squadron/etc.

What some people consider hazing, *I*, would not considered hazing, but I've had them done to me and later had a good laugh about it. NHQ outlines what the *official* definition of hazing is so that it is standardized and keeps everyone safe.

No one wants 10 or 12 year old C/AB Johnny running home today telling daddy about a meany First Sergeant who made him to push-ups, when daddy is a lawyer...
C/2nd Lt Haughey
Cadet Commander, 089th MACS

C/Lt Col, AFJROTC
Cadet Commander, FL-20056

Mavvrikk

That is true. Sadly in today's society people feel the need to go around suing everyone. 

Garibaldi

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 01:55:10 PM
If it happened to me and I have no problem with it, then it's not hazing. It didn't screw me up mentally or anything.


CAPR 52-10 says..."c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed."

Unfortunately your viewpoint isn't shared by the other cadet(s) who may feel intimidated or threatened by someone (s)he barely knows who is bigger and higher ranking than him/her yelling at or singling him/her out. This is why we have CPPT, to protect you youngins from not only us, but yourselves. Cadets who reach the magical age of 18 are required to take CPPT.

Parents are so quick to judge and sue because of things they don't understand. All they would know is that Johnny or Janie was yelled at for having unshined shoes or forgetting their hat, and "how dare they subject my child to that sort of treatment! Where do we keep the lawyer's card?"
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Eclipse

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 01:55:10 PM
If it happened to me and I have no problem with it, then it's not hazing.

Thankfully, since there is no such thing as anonymity on the internet, this is likely already being addressed with those in your wing.

"That Others May Zoom"

Mavvrikk

Huh? I don't want to get anyone in trouble for it, I had a great time at encampment. I didn't care. They've helped me with remembering things outside of CAP, I now always do a mental checklist of things I need, as a result of encampment. And it was nothing extreme.

Mavvrikk

Just a side note, it was group motivational pt, not just me. If that's what you thought I meant.

PHall

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
Just a side note, it was group motivational pt, not just me. If that's what you thought I meant.

It's still illegal. The 52-10 is pretty straight forward on this. It's not allowed, ever.

This is why we have to complete RST every year at encampment. Because some people just still don't get it... >:(

Майор Хаткевич

Your ratialization of it doesn't make it OK. YOU may have been OK with it, but C/Amn Smith in your flight may have then gone home and quit CAP because it affected them as well. The point is that what you described would have had me in deep water had I done something like that at encampment in IL. There are dozens of better ways to deal with something like this. Singling you out with a duct tape purse is not it.

Mavvrikk

I thought CAP was meant to prepare you for the military, how is no motivational pt or discipline preparing you for the military?

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 06:23:23 PM
I thought CAP was meant to prepare you for the military, how is no motivational pt or discipline preparing you for the military?
No. CAP isn't meant to prepare you for the military. Encampment isn't BMT. Nor should it be. 

I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Mavvrikk

It makes you no better as a cadet.

JayT

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 06:23:23 PM
I thought CAP was meant to prepare you for the military, how is no motivational pt or discipline preparing you for the military?

CAP is not meant to prepare you for the military. A sixteen year old Cadet Staff Sergeant or a senior member who works at Walmart and has spent six months in CAP don't have the training or background to provide 'motivational' PT or Basic Training style discipline. 
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Mavvrikk

Then what's the point of encampment? I thought it was to discipline you into a better cadet.

JayT

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
Then what's the point of encampment? I thought it was to discipline you into a better cadet.

What does discipline mean to you? Discipline in the real world does not mean push ups, or duct tape purse or what not. Encampment was suppose to help you grow as a cadet and a leader.

If I'm late to work, I don't get dropped for push ups. I get a warning. If it happens multiple times, then consequences happen (like losing my job.) However, if I make a mistake related to patient care, then the consequences involve education and consoling so that it won't happen again.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Mavvrikk

Discipline to me is any form of punishment that will cause me to remember things, and to cause me to want to do better than the bare minimum. Anything that makes me better at what I do.

ol'fido

#337
Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Discipline to me is any form of punishment that will cause me to remember things, and to cause me to want to do better than the bare minimum. Anything that makes me better at what I do.
The first and best definition of "discipline" is training. That's is what you should have received instead of "punishment". If I train someone right, make them practice it enough that it becomes second nature, and instills in them the desire to get it right without being told to do so every time, THAT is DISCIPLINE.

If I punish somebody every time they get something wrong, I will teach them to do just enough not to get punished. That is NOT discipline.

As for discipline vs. hazing we have had that discussion on many other threads. In less than one week, I will be heading out to encampment #18. In those 18 encampments, I have learned that punishment and hazing have no place at one.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Garibaldi

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Discipline to me is any form of punishment that will cause me to remember things, and to cause me to want to do better than the bare minimum. Anything that makes me better at what I do.

No. You can accomplish the same thing by learning why you need to do things properly or at all. I'd say you would do well at Marine Corps boot camp or Hell Week at the Citadel or West Point. Yelling at someone who forgets his hat or making the cadet do push-ups because he forgot what the cadet oath is accomplishes nothing. You said it didn't bother you, and that means that the "motivational" aspect of the "punishment" has failed. Having to dole out punishment means the parent or leader or manager has failed.

Our job is not to break you down in order to mold you into something else. That's what Plebe year and basic training are for.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Eclipse

Quote from: Mavvrikk on July 22, 2012, 05:42:06 PM
Huh? I don't want to get anyone in trouble for it...

Then don't wander onto the internet telling tales, especially recent ones, that indicate staff at an activity
broke several tenets and regulations regarding the cadet program.

CAP is very clear as to what is, and what isn't allowed.  Punitive PT, even when described as "motivational" is 100% prohibited, and
the other things you mention could well be interpreted as hazing.

"That Others May Zoom"